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View Diary: Libertarians provided the margin for Democrats in at least nine elections (125 comments)

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  •  Understandable misconception, but still a (0+ / 0-)

    misconception. Their website (www.lp.org) states their party platform, and it's worth a read. My read is that the Libertarian Party is definitely NOT "anti-civil rights," as you assert.

    They actually appear to be pro civil rights, often to an extreme.

    Please don't hesitate to call me on this -- I'd welcome the correction if I'm mistaken.

    I maintain that the "libertarianism" expressed by racists and militia types is actually "sham libertarianism."

    My take is that Johnnythebandit's assessment is fairly accurate, which makes the party attractive to many young thinking people, the types who would typically be horrified by the Republicans' insanity regarding social issues.

    "...pero mi corazón me aconseja, que los nacionalismos - ¡qué miedo me dan!" - Enrique Bunbury (El Extranjero)

    by JustGiaco on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 10:05:34 AM PST

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    •  What about the libertarianism (7+ / 0-)

      of Rand Paul and the Barry Goldwater campaign of 1964? Both of them expressed the view that businessmen have the right to choose to serve or not serve whomever they like, and therefore, that any civil rights law regulating their conduct is wrong. Restricting civil rights laws to those regulating government conduct only amounts to an anti-civil rights position, in the real world.

      Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

      by MichaelNY on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 01:38:55 PM PST

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      •  That's the real problem with libertarianism (4+ / 0-)

        Their rhetoric expouses a pro-civil rights agenda insofar as it supports treating everyone equally.  The problem, though, is that whether those policies actually produce the desired outcome is of completely secondary importance to libertarians.  Rather, what is important to libertarians is how intellectually satisfying and consistent the policy is.

        Personally, I don't care if libertarians are "right" on civil rights or foreign policy.  The extent they are is purely coincidental.  Anyone who cares more about being intellectually consistent, and being able to apply a small set of principles uniformly, regardless of the outcome, is a monster, plain and simple.

        To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

        by sneakers563 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 04:19:05 PM PST

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        •  Monster is a little strong (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JustGiaco

          I'd just say that they may have good intentions, but their refusal to bend their principles means they can pave several roads to Hell without really looking back.

          Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

          by MichaelNY on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 06:07:38 PM PST

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          •  I see where you're coming from (0+ / 0-)

            Sorry it's too late for me to rec you.

            I once saw a lecture, "Monstrous Geographies" or something, where they said that the original meaning of "monster" was a creature where one trait is exaggerated to the detriment of all else. It was in that sense that I used it.

            For instance, we all value people who "follow their principles", and want to live in a world guided by just principles.  I think most of us temper that, though, depending on the situation, because we recognize that you can't just expect a simple set of basic principles to account for all the vast complexity of reality.  Principles should be a map, not a straightjacket.  Unfortunately, what I often see in libertarians is a tendency to believe that because the principle is "good", any outcome produced by the application of the principle must also, therefore, be "good", or at least acceptable.    

            Obviously, the modern meaning has a more sinister connotation, so you're right that it's a bit strong.  I don't think they have ill intentions.  I do think, though, that they elevate principle to such a degree that they lose sight of why we value principles in the first place: to help us arrive at a desirable outcome.  We need to understand that "good" principles can lead to bad outcomes.

            To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

            by sneakers563 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:54:38 AM PST

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      •  Here's an area where I disagree with (0+ / 0-)

        progressive politics. What's wrong with allowing businesses to choose who they serve?  If enough people disagree with a business owner's policies, he/she will have no recourse other than to serve people he/she doesn't want to serve or risk going out of business.  Creating a law that forces him/her to serve people does make him/her want to do it.  All it does is make the business owner hate his/her country.

        Let's face it.  Different races do not want to live together.  If they did, we wouldn't have overwhelmingly black middle class counties like Prince Georges County, Maryland or overwhelmingly white counties like Carroll County, Maryland.

        The truly crazy thing about progressive politics is that P.G. County gets a pass while Carroll County gets persecuted. It's okay for middle class black Americans to live in a middle class black enclave because they are only exercising racial affinity.  However, when middle class white people do the same thing, they are written off as racists.  That's just plain stupid.  All it creates is resentment.

        •  That's never how things worked (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IowaLibert, JustGiaco

          Segregation was not about the free market. White businessmen who wanted to serve blacks were often effectively denied the right to, either by law, by violence or threats from the KKK or some good old boys who reminded the owner they had guns they could bring next time, or through social pressure or boycotts by white racists.

          I'm trying not to be inordinately angry at your post, but are you sure you've studied enough of the history of the two periods of violently resisted civil rights movements (Reconstruction and about 100 years after that)?

          Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

          by MichaelNY on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 07:20:30 PM PST

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      •  both sham libertarians! (0+ / 0-)

        But I like your comments, MichaelNY, keep 'em coming.

        I live in a red part of PA right now, so I have to keep a low profile -- can't have too many political discussions out loud -- they all have guns and I don't.

        "...pero mi corazón me aconseja, que los nacionalismos - ¡qué miedo me dan!" - Enrique Bunbury (El Extranjero)

        by JustGiaco on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 07:29:12 AM PST

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