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View Diary: Not Even Wrong - Anonymous Stopped Rove from Stealing the Election (619 comments)

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  •  What is this accomplishing? (30+ / 0-)

    I don't understand what being the "diary police", attacking diaries in their comment threads and posting "don't post that" diaries accomplishes. It's embarrassing, just like the "47%" debacle. This site is "reality based", but denying realities that are happening because of some  minor detail you disagree with is not being reality based, even if you scream "REALITY BAAAAAAASED!!!!!!" while doing it.

    I agree that the Anon story is a little sketchy. But are you actually accomplishing anything? Voter suppression was rampant in Ohio, and I'm tired of people saying it didn't happen when I saw it myself.

    I'm getting tired of it. What's really embarrassing is you guys comparing people to rightwingers. I don't have time to find examples, but I'm tired of hearing people compared to Freepers or called "the Tea Party Wing" of the left. I see this all the tiime. If any behavior should be banned it's that.

    So that's pretty much all I have to say.  I've said my piece and now I'll move on instead of calling people names, flooding comment threads, and starting HR wars. Because someone else's diary is like someone else's house. I'd like to see that rule actually enforced.

    "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

    by Broke And Unemployed on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 06:49:43 AM PST

    •  I don't think anyone is saying that. (31+ / 0-)

      I welcome a discussion on the topic but that discussion has to include facts and supporting evidence.  

      You can't just go on the intertubes in a mask and make wild claims without any sort of proof.  For all you know, I posted that video.

      Again I welcome the discussion but that discussion has to start with the party making the claims laying out concrete facts to be examined.

      •  disagree (5+ / 0-)

        When a crime is committed, the first thing investigators do is to look to those with a known track record of committing similar crimes. For instance, after a bank robbery cops look for known criminals who are suddenly flush with new cash.

        Means, motive, opportunity, and circumstantial evidence must precede the gathering of "concrete" evidence. And in the absence of provable evidence, it's still legitimate to raise pertinent questions and take a closer look at the suspects.

        I admit that this is tangential to the "Anonymous" diary, which laid out unprovable claims as fact, but I feel that in this context my point has a place in the discussion.

        Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

        by drewfromct on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:02:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, there were people saying (23+ / 0-)

        a lot of that last night.  I thought a bigger point was being raised about voting integrity -- whether the Anon story was intriguing folklore or not.  I had argued that the discussion was at least a valid one to have until Markos threatened with the ban wand again.  I thought it was inflammatory at best to loop some of the folk there in the same boat as the tea baggers, especially when some of them clearly understood IT matters.

        I think the bigger issue as I see it, is not so much whether Anon stopped anything, but whether this kind of election fraud is actually possible with the equipment that we use today.

        I did a lot of reading as a result of last night's thread and I can tell you that I'm not comfortable with foreign entities' ownership of proprietary code software systems that some states rely upon to process and tabulate votes.  That should give pause to any American who is serious about voting integrity.  I'm no longer  comfortable with 50 states having 50 different ways of collecting and processing the vote.  The Constitution does allow for the government to put into place uniform standards.  

        If the states cannot demonstrate that they can do a better job at this process, then some steps need to be taken.  

        Voter integrity in my mind involves both eliminating voter suppression tactics as well as transparency with the voting process to have a reasonable assurance that no election fraud can occur from the voters who vote to the people and institutions responsible for taking care of our vote.

        "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

        by smoothnmellow on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:20:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I just said the same thing above (4+ / 0-)

          and then saw your comment where you stated it more eloquently.

          I did a lot of reading as a result of last night's thread and I can tell you that I'm not comfortable with foreign entities' ownership of proprietary code software systems that some states rely upon to process and tabulate votes.  That should give pause to any American who is serious about voting integrity.  I'm no longer  comfortable with 50 states having 50 different ways of collecting and processing the vote.  The Constitution does allow for the government to put into place uniform standards.  

          If the states cannot demonstrate that they can do a better job at this process, then some steps need to be taken.  

          Voter integrity in my mind involves both eliminating voter suppression tactics as well as transparency with the voting process to have a reasonable assurance that no election fraud can occur from the voters who vote to the people and institutions responsible for taking care of our vote.

        •  Your comments were excellent, IMO (8+ / 0-)

          We need a full discussion of the integrity of our elections.

          look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

          by FishOutofWater on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:37:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I would go for that. (10+ / 0-)

            I do think it's important.  I don't want to have to worry every two years or so whether I can trust the results coming out of Ohio or even New Mexico or Arizona for that matter -- I think those states also had massive problems with counting the vote.  

            And I just plain get tired of Florida's 18th century way of freaking collecting the damn vote.  This is America, 2012 on its way into 2013 and we can't come close to getting this right?

            I for one will no longer ignore this problem.  We have GOT to insist on a better voting process all around or we are just begging for these folklore stories to turn into fact based reality.

            "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

            by smoothnmellow on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:47:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  credibility (24+ / 0-)

      the site has more credibility because of this tendency to police ourselves.  If we ran off with everything that sounded true because it fits in with our expectations of the world, we would wind up pushing all kinds of crap that winds up being proven untrue.  That the anon story was put up in a diary isn't the problem.  The facts are that someone claiming to be from 'Anonymous' is making a grandiose claim about saving the election.  No evidence is given.  It's just something we could believe because Rove is an evil piece of shit.  But believing just any and everything that sounds plausible without any real world evidence doesn't do anyone any good besides people who want to point to this site as a crackpot haven that serious people can ignore.  

      I wouldn't be here after all these years without the pesky "police."  

      It should have told people something when that diarist ended the CT piece with

      To borrow a slogan, I report, and you decide

      When truth is only a matter of opinion, advantage goes to the liars.

      by Sun dog on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 06:56:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This diary police thing is killing our credibility (7+ / 0-)

        It's having the opposite effect of what is intended. Many diaries have been attacked and HR'd in the comments that were true, like 47% or Bainport.

        When people click on a diary like and see all these childish fights in the comments it makes people think twice before taking anything they see on DailyKos seriously. It's just sad.

        "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

        by Broke And Unemployed on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:01:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Most appropriately attacked (10+ / 0-)

          That just doesn't make any sense.  Avoiding CT is important for this site's credibility. There are other places to go on the internet if you want to chase around every crazy claim.

          It was good to wait until the 47% comment was verified. What does "being first" matter?  

          •  "It was good that the 47% comment was verified"??! (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chidmf, dennis1958, RMForbes, ivote2004

            Which is Newspeak for "it was doubleplusgood that the 47% video was ruthlessly attacked even though it was true"

            Wow. I'm starting to think this site is beyond help. I thought the piefights were just election stress, but you guys actually belieive this crap, that ruthlessly attacking things you disagree with somehow helps this community.

            "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

            by Broke And Unemployed on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:20:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe if that diarist hadn't taken the (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Smoh, IndieGuy, erush1345

              cloak and dagger approach to presenting that information and played it straight instead, they wouldn't have been doubted off the site?

              Hmmm?

              You can call it "class warfare" -- we call it "common sense"

              by kenlac on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:57:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe if members hadn't demanded (4+ / 0-)

                that a newbie diarist needed to suck up to them or get autobanned? None of the things the diarist did and got HR'd for were against the rules.

                That was a case of diary police making up rules to suit them.

              •  Well, that's what the comment section (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FishOutofWater

                is for -- to agree or disagree.  Many expressed very strong comments against the diary and they were all duly noted.

                I mean, we all adults here or so I hope.  At some point, we progressives need to understand that we are going to disagree on many things.  This is what makes us different from the right.  We should be able to do so without a nuclear meltdown or cyber bullies attacking posters or concerned or not so concerned trollers commandeering the flow of conversation.

                Of course, I also say this in concert with the rules established for this forum.

                "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

                by smoothnmellow on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:32:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  There are lots of people yelling on street corners (0+ / 0-)

              If they try to push their way into your house, there's nothing wrong with pushing them out until they make their case.

              In a better world, unsupported accusations could be regarded neutrally. In a world where they're being used as deliberate poison, they should be vomited out before they make us sick.

          •  I am very much *NOT* the diary police (18+ / 0-)

            Kos does that job.

            I was explaining why I think Kos is correct in this case. I don't like net scolds and I don't intend to be one. However, I am sick of CT on climate change and I don't want to let this site end up looking like the comments section of a MSM news article on climate change. The noise kills rational discussion.

            look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

            by FishOutofWater on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:41:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  FOW, I really support your work on Climate Change (5+ / 0-)

              and follow and read you with regular interest.

              However, I wonder, how did you see a parallel between the diary that reported a letter from Anonymous and:

              I am sick of CT on climate change and I don't want to let this site end up looking like the comments section of a MSM news article on climate change.
              There are crimes that are being committed against humanity by climate change deniers and the helplessness and fury in the face of them is limitless.  

              However, how does discussing a report re. a letter from Anonymous and considering its reality, equal to the magnitude of climate change denial?  The letter may or may not be true and if I understand the discussion, most people were able to hold that undecided but inquiring position.  How is that a CT?

              Are you perhaps justifiably sensitized on CT theories on climate change and perhaps a little to ready to see CT very quickly in other areas as well?  I say this with utmost respect of you.

              I think that your diary is a good contribution to the discussion and thank you for what you have brought to the table, however imo, it is not a conclusive one. This discussion must continue and not be silenced.  There are more sides to be looked at and I think some of the minority voices are trying to bring those sides to the table.  And are being shouted down.  

              I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the Anonymous story re. Rove.  I am open to it and would like to investigate it.  This is an opportunity for this community and the world at large to educate itself and inform itself more about Anonymous and the range of cyber warfare of all kinds.  I believe our future will be defined by it.  And 'hacktivists' will be/are our new warriors or terrorists, depending on your point of view.

              So, it becomes very, very important that we learn to separate the wheat from the chaff on this subject.  Open, rational discussion is the pathway to do that.

              Thank you for your important contribution to the discussion.

               

              It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

              by SeaTurtle on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:24:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  But that diary was not talking about (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FishOutofWater

              climate change and I don't think I would lump this in with the Anon discussion.  The whole CT thing on CC was coming from a very well orchestrated manipulation on the right as well as the complicity of the main stream media not doing their jobs as journalists.  I have to say again that our real problem is the press and the deregulation of media by the FCC.  This is yet another issue that at some point needs to addressed.  For all our sake.

              "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

              by smoothnmellow on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:37:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think that everyone is in agreement (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Einsteinia

            to what constitutes CT.  I certainly do not think that avoiding any such stories hits at DK's credibility because of the self-policing that goes on here.

            But it does make for ugly pie fights.

            Of course, that's just my opinion on the matter and does not reflect the actual rules of this forum.

            "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

            by smoothnmellow on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:27:05 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did you miss the diary (4+ / 0-)

              from James Carter III (under pseudonym) offering the 47% videos? Or Markos' reaction well after the fact when HuffPo revealed the source? The diary police were disgusting then, no more disgusting when Kos finally weighed in with his whine.

              Do we know the name of the wait-service employee who planted the recorder to get the 47% videos? No - to this day we don't have a name. That didn't invalidate the videos one bit, did it? Though to judge from the diary police here, it was the biggest Conspiracy Theory since the grassy knoll.

              You can't have it both ways. Markos set the no CT rule and turned the self-appointed diary police loose to use nothing more than their personal disagreement as reason to make hash of any diary's comment section. According to this diary he is once again re-enforcing that sort of thing, against a diary that merely reported a news story and made no claims of veracity. If ever there is an official investigation of Rove's program based on evidence provided by Anonymous to those whose job it is to investigate such things, I for one don't want to see another whine from ownership.

              •  How do you know it was James Carter III? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ballerina X

                P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                by BoiseBlue on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:34:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  To clarify, how do you know that is who was (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Joieau, erush1345

                  posting the videos here? I know how he was involved in this, but I've never seen anything about him being the person posting the videos here.

                  P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                  by BoiseBlue on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:34:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  wasn't that poster suggested to be a female by (0+ / 0-)

                    some 3rd-party poster?

                    It seems curiosity has killed the cat that had my tongue.

                    by Murphoney on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:43:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I can't recall (0+ / 0-)

                      I was absent during most of it, but this is the first time I've heard the claim that it was actually James Carter III that was posting the videos here and banned.

                      But there was another poster who was banned shortly after, who seemed to be carrying a grudge on behalf of the first banned user. That's probably the person you're referencing.

                      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                      by BoiseBlue on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:53:10 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Hmmm... come to think of it, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    la urracca

                    we don't know for a fact it was him. Could have been the food-service employee his/herself. Though when HuffPo did the legwork his is the credibility that got attached to it.

                    Either way, the video clips were entirely straightforward - Mitt Romney in a "quiet room" full of his rich minions saying what he really thinks. It was one of the more damaging revelations of the entire election season. CT troll-rated into oblivion here more because there were a number of diaries with different segments than because the clips were to be considered fake.

                    Didn't make the diary police pile-ons seem very smart, very perceptive, or anything remotely resembling noble. Quite the opposite, in fact.

              •  Actually, yes I did see the diary. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joieau

                The point that I was making is that we as progressives are very strong and varied in our opinions.  We don't march in lockstep and we couldn't even if we tried to.  Pushback is a good thing, but the trick is when to note when things are becoming unbalanced -- either way.  Rules are good things to enforce the boundaries, but there are going to be times when Admin has to make that call to either let it flow or shut it down.  I don't fret about the diary police too much, or at least I try not to.  The biggest thing to do (and the hardest at times) is to walk away when the discussion is pointless.

                I don't want to push this much further, because Markos has sided with the policing faction and that's the way it goes, but I never got the impression that the OD in the other diary was pushing a meme supporting the story, rather than reporting on it.  I had already heard about the story and I wondered why it hadn't been diaried before last night because it was a story being reported, that's all.

                But if we aren't to diary on stories that is being reported because it falls into a conspiracy theory, then I guess that's the way it is to be here.

                "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

                by smoothnmellow on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:57:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's editing that makes a newspaper (0+ / 0-)

                That wouldn't have been a "news story" in any newspaper with an experienced editor.

        •  When they come on to the site (9+ / 0-)

          and see insane gibberish posing as factual argument, that also leaves a bad taste.

          If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

          by CwV on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:09:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Like the Repubs' current Benghazi insanity. (14+ / 0-)

            It's like they are speaking in tongues on right-wing sites, and it's totally repellant to actual sane people.

            So sad. And I'm cheering them on as they shoot themselves in the foot, just as Romney did in the debates.

            That is where unpoliced (or encouraged) conspiracy theorizing leads.

            And may I just add that I have always appreciated the Daily Kos ban on conspiracy theory. I have seen it keep this community on track, and reality based.

            And in the run-up to the Iraq war, when I came here, having reality as I was seeing it confirmed was primary to me, as I was surrounded by nonsensical propaganda. I was surrounded, in other words, by the media propounding utter and transparent bullshit, even on the front page of the New York Times (yeah, I know, I was so naive). That is in some ways the genesis of this site--as the reality based alternative to lies and propaganda in a right-wing controlled media messaging.

            There is no substitute for reality, and for reasonable proof.

            And may I say, I sincerely thank you, Kos. And all my fellow Kossacks who insist on remaining a reality based community. Thank you all.

            Life is a school, love is the lesson.

            by means are the ends on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:47:54 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  This post is insane gibberish (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Broke And Unemployed

            posted by an anonymous member who hides behind the handle "CwV". Keep digging.

            •  You really think so? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              IndieGuy, ConfusedSkyes

              And your real name is Angela Quattrano?
              Whatev.

              If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

              by CwV on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:10:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  My name is not Angela Quattrano (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joieau, Broke And Unemployed, Thumb

                any more than yours is CwV. It makes no sense whatever to demand that nothing be posted on this site until long after it has made every other news source and then been proven by an investigation that results in a conviction.

                Unless, of course, you are trying to say that the sole purpose of this site should be bonding between members.

                Neither one of us has any credibility as a function of this site, which is why setting yourself up to be a site cop is so absurd.

                •  I'm not a "cop" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  houyhnhnm

                  I didn't set the rules, I don't enforce them, I'm not able to H/R even.
                  But, as someone who has a few conspiracy theories of my own, I'm respectful of kos and the other longterm, high-mojo players here that I generally keep them to myself.
                  And actually, CwV are my initials, in f2f world, I'm "CV" to many of the people around me but I couldn't get away with just two letters.

                  If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

                  by CwV on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:34:14 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Childish fights? (9+ / 0-)

          I could care less.  What I like about dkos is that if a story lives here I know it has passed the smell test with some pretty sensitive noses.  If a few things get missed because they are poorly sourced or presented, that's a fair price for having credibility.  

          What you just said makes absolutely no sense.  You're arguing for Stephen Colbert's 'Truthiness.'  We should just shut up and not demand proof is a story feels true.  In that case, this site would have blended in with all the other noise in the world a long time ago.  

          When truth is only a matter of opinion, advantage goes to the liars.

          by Sun dog on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:11:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You could care less. (0+ / 0-)

            Got it. Who cares about this community. Diaries you disagree with must be TAKEN DOWN!!!! NOW!!!

            "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

            by Broke And Unemployed on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:26:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I enjoy argument and disagreement (5+ / 0-)

              And I'm not making anyone do anything here.

              However, Kos has been known to ban people very quickly. I miss Stranded Wind and Mary Scott O'Connor. I don't like seeing good people get banned.

              look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

              by FishOutofWater on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:13:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  That's perfect (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zett, salamanderempress

              You sound like kids I knew in third grade.  

              Like I said, I don't care about the childish fights because they're inevitable on a forum like this.  What has kept me coming back for years now is the fact that all the sound and fury of childish clowns doesn't drown out the truth in the long run like it does in most of the 'mainstream.'  

              I saw that Anonymous saved the election thing on the rec list and thought, Really?!?  And then I saw there was zero evidence.  It was a story someone wrote and finished with the FOX NEWS slogan!  And I knew that because this is dailykos, the story wasn't going to have legs.  And if it did have legs, it was going to be because someone came up with actual evidence that the story is real.  

              This is such a stupid argument.  You're trying to insult me because I'm arguing for verifiable facts over truthiness.  Grow up and quit wasting people's time.  

              When truth is only a matter of opinion, advantage goes to the liars.

              by Sun dog on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:54:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  What you like about this site (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Broke And Unemployed

            is that no news is ever posted until after the investigation is complete, convictions have been obtained, and it has long been forgotten by every site that deals in timely news.

            I like the edgy stuff. You don't. You need safety and security. You want obedience to authority, even if it is self-appointed and gets to make up rules as they go.

            •  Wow you know me so well (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              salamanderempress
              I like the edgy stuff. You don't. You need safety and security. You want obedience to authority, even if it is self-appointed and gets to make up rules as they go.
              With all due respect, fuck you and the strawman you rode in on.  :-)

              When truth is only a matter of opinion, advantage goes to the liars.

              by Sun dog on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 02:03:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Fuck you and the straw man you rode in on"... (0+ / 0-)

                That's what you said, somehow thinking it helps this discussion.

                I'll go back  to not commenting, just thought everyone should see what you said without having to click on the comment. Everyone should be aware of the tactics the conspiracy hunters use. You guys seem to think that the nastier you are, the more you insult people, the deeper the wedge you drive into this community, that it somehow helps this site's "credibility".

                "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

                by Broke And Unemployed on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 03:06:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  THIS (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            InsultComicDog, Lost and Found

            I'll gladly trade a missed story for a community that rejects pure conspiracy theories.

            Not even close.

            And for everyone mentioning that 47% diary -- the diarist never included the full video. It was audio-only. And just 5-8-second clips at that. Had that person diaried the full video (which is what the younger Jimmy Carter convinced him to do), the results would've been much different.

        •  You seem to be the only one in this diary (10+ / 0-)

          Who views this as a fight, let alone a childish one, just as you appear unable to see the difference between voter suppression and vote fraud.

          Your objections are noted, but this seems to be a childish fight in and of itself.

          P.S. I am not a crackpot.

          by BoiseBlue on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:17:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wait, what? (5+ / 0-)

          You're saying that banning conspiracy theories is hurting our credibility?

          Maybe it hurts our credibility among the truther and birther crowds, but beyond that I don't see how anyone can rationally reach this conclusion.

          Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

          by Caj on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:31:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Broke And Unemployed

        This is a site where the majority of members use handles that makes them essentially anonymous and with zero credibility.

        Only front pagers and others who use their own names have any credibility. You are an anonymous poster who goes by the handle of "Sun dog". You have zero credibility.

        •  I think you're confusing two things here (8+ / 0-)

          Anonymous claims, presented with no evidence, have no credibility.  If we claimed to have hacked Rove's secret vote-hacking software, with no evidence provided beyond a vague (and oddly confused) letter, then yes, that would have no credibility.  Its anonymity is part of that---we don't know if this was a security expert, a CS professor, or a 13-year-old who just watched "The Net" with Sandra Bullock.

          That doesn't mean anonymous people have no credibility.  An anonymous person posting something independently verifiable, like evidence, or logical argument, is perfectly credible---the anonymity is not an issue in that case, because it does not interfere with the verification process.

          In this case, there's no way of knowing if this Anonymous letter was wishful thinking by a junior high school kid who wants to be L33T.  If you are at all familiar with hacker culture, you'd know that happens pretty frequently.

          Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

          by Caj on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:41:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've left a message board because of CTs (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sun dog, melfunction

        It covered an area that fascinated me. I had to leave because it was taken over by garbage. The first person to go on my ignore list there said that the Haiti earthquake was a secret US weapons test. 9/11 nuts and anti-vaccine people followed. When I got to four dozen people on my ignore list and was still wading through offal to get to interesting things I gave up.

        Crap attracts crap. It has to be stomped on before it's too late.

    •  Confusion. (25+ / 0-)

      Mentioning "voter suppression" in the same sentence with the Anonymous claim is a complete non sequitur.

    •  No one is disputing that voter suppresion occurred (22+ / 0-)

      That DOES NOT equal Karl Rove stealing the election.

      Those are two different things. One of them is a reality, the other a paranoid fear.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 06:56:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Voter suppression (18+ / 0-)

      is accomplished via visible, quasi-"legal" manipulation of actions, closing of of venues, limiting machinery, and other such things.

      It can be fought and beaten through collective action taken by aware, informed, and active citizens.

      Election theft via secret hacks, codes, and software worms controlled from afar by secret servers is beyond the ability of most activists, voters, and "normal" (i.e. not computer experts) people.

      The former requires action and cooperation, and the latter invites despair.

      The fact that the latter has never be actually demonstrated, nor has any actual documented proof of long-term, long-distance actual vote retabulation been presented.

      Conspiracy theories are not frowned upon because they're silly (silly is good!), nor are they frowned upon because they're a waste of time (caturdae pooties!)... they're frowned upon because they're deadening, enervating, hope-stealing, cooperation-killing, empowerment-derailing psychobabble dressed up to look pretty.

      As I said on the prior thread: show the documentation via server logs, attempted log-ins, time-stamps... or shush.

      The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

      by RedDan on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:01:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I personally appreciate (30+ / 0-)

      the occasional diaries that caution us against sloppy and/or self-indulgent thinking. There are many benefits to this community of shared attitudes, but there are also pitfalls such as mutual back-patting, becoming our own echo chamber.

      If the political pendulum does swing back to the left, some incisive self-criticism will extend the amount of time we remain effective and relevant.

      I'd like to pause here to remember George Carlin, who used to call us on our smugness and remind us that we are all assholes.  It's up to us to carry on without him.

      Thanks, FishOutofWater.  Nice work.

      •  political mutt wins the diary comment thread (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, political mutt

        More seriously, though, I have been guilty a time or two myself of accepting as gospel things that make the other side look bad and are emotionally satisfying but have zero basis in reality.

        I didn't read the diary in question at all, much less the comments. But just looking at the title my bullshit detector went off right away. That story didn't even put the ball in play as far as my "smell test" is concerned.

        liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

        by RockyMtnLib on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:20:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually... (8+ / 0-)

      ...the rule involving CT explicitly notes that people posting or spreading CT on this site should expect ridicule and derision.

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:06:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  nu? (8+ / 0-)
      This site is "reality based", but denying realities that are happening because of some minor detail you disagree with is not being reality based
      I agree with that in the abstract. I have no idea how it applies here.

      Moreover, I've found that people who are predisposed to CT tend to think that CT diaries and comments somehow reflect "reality" regardless of how wrong they are.

      Voter suppression was rampant in Ohio, and I'm tired of people saying it didn't happen when I saw it myself.
      That might be a good point, but only if you can explain the connection.

      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:07:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Read the diary to the bottom. The problem w noise. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, Smoh, liberte, terrypinder

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:27:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  ASDF (8+ / 0-)
      So that's pretty much all I have to say.  I've said my piece and now I'll move on instead of calling people names, flooding comment threads, and starting HR wars. Because someone else's diary is like someone else's house. I'd like to see that rule actually enforced.
      Or not, eh?

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:34:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I'm done. (0+ / 0-)

        I didn't expect such an immediate, forceful response so I ended up responding to just about all of them. But I'm done wasting my time in this diary. We'll see how this "small tent" strategy works in 2014 though,.

        You won't have Broke and Unemployed to kick around, because gentlemen, this is my last comment in this diary.

        "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

        by Broke And Unemployed on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:40:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're quite the expert pugelist. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh, virginislandsguy

          That straw man is in about 50 pieces. Equating calling out CT bullshit with wanting to censor diaries because of mere disagreement, and then accusing us of wanting a small tent: Wow! Just, wow (smh)!

          liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

          by RockyMtnLib on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:26:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The straw man in action (3+ / 0-)

            There is a misunderstanding here about the difference between conspiracies and conspiracy theories. Real conspiracies, where 2 or more people work together in secret, happen all the time.

            The demand that no true conspiracy ever be suggested on the site because conspiracy theories like Area 51 exist is just a convenient way of calling for censorship and suppression.

            You want a feel-good bonding place where nothing will ever challenge your preconceived notions. If you convert this site into that place it will indeed be a small-tent site where the only "news" is really old news.

            •  My preconceived notions have been (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              virginislandsguy, melfunction

              challenged on a regular basis here. But in exactly zero cases have I had to rethink anything because someone posted an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

              Remember the rule? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

              liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

              by RockyMtnLib on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 09:22:23 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  res ipsa loquitur (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                teehsu

                is a legal concept that places the burden of that PROOF on the people with the insider knowledge -- YET the courts keep on upholding the trade secret privilege of voting companies using OUR money and OUR democracy.  

                Btw, we have tons of proof on the hackability of our systems, but if you think it is easy for any of us mere mortals to have the ability to invade the computers systems to have that extraordinary proof you want, then IF this allegations of wrongdoing are correct, the perpetrators will never be caught at this rate.

                Heckuva job!

                Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

                by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 02:50:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  but if someone is accused of a crime (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Einsteinia

                  the burden of proof still lies with the accuser. It doesn't change when it's election law.

                  liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

                  by RockyMtnLib on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 03:05:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Please read this previous DailyKos (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bluezen

                    diary that explains there are times when the burden of proof is reversed, and election systems would seem to be a prime candidate for the reasons outlined in this diary (which went viral when published and the co-author I later discovered is a highly reputable insider and attorney):

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

                    by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 03:15:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  wow. what a diary! thank you so much for the (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Einsteinia

                      link.  any thoughts of reposting it as a rebuttal to the naysayers?  i don't know who's right in the case of anonymous' claims but that diary is fucking mind-blowing!

                      it was quite a trip, too, to read the comments & the old recommend system.  i think that was still being used when i originally joined in 2008 (under another name -- which i forgot/lost!).  ahh, memories :)

                      •  Thank you! Yes, the ol' days (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        bluezen

                        which unfortunately are still these days.

                        The unbelievable back-lash to even trying to discuss election integrity without the PROOF, yet this is not within our reach.  

                        This diary is superb thanks to Major Tom (who I later found out was/is a VERY important person).

                        Feel free to use that diary and repost.

                        Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

                        by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 04:39:39 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  i would repost it but i don't know how to do it! (0+ / 0-)

                          i tried to link your link (that sounds odd, doesn't it) to a comment downthread where someone said, "hey, where's the proof that voting machines can be tampered with? until i see the proof . . . " etc., but i couldn't do it right, so i gave up.

                          hopelessly tech-challenged, i guess :)

                    •  Read that previous diary (0+ / 0-)

                      and fair enough. Still the issue in FOoW's diary here and the diary from yesterday it referenced isn't whether Republicans in general or Karl Rove in particular have engaged in election chicanery. I know of no non-troll here who denies that.

                      The issue at hand here is narrow: whether Anonymous uncovered such activity. That's not a claim I would just accept at face value.

                      liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

                      by RockyMtnLib on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 06:39:25 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  am with you, B&U (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Broke And Unemployed

      tx for comments

      It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

      by SeaTurtle on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 08:02:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "denying realities that are happening because of s (0+ / 0-)

      Is anyone denying voter suppression?

    •  But it really wasn't about the diary; the diary (0+ / 0-)

      Is a case in point and not unique. This diary is about a mode of thinking that is toxic to rational discussion. Also, Kos has set very few strictly enforced rules for this site, and the policy against CT's is the rare exception to that. Kos has asked for community policing on this front, and there's absolutely nothing wrong withe diarist taking steps to affirm the community that Kos has built. If you don't want to take larger lessons from this diary, that says something about you, not the diarist. Nevermind that you're doing some policing here yourself. If you don't like it, there's always the option of ignoring it.

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