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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meetup: Capitalism - Is It Fair and Just? (108 comments)

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  •  because that is what truly faces us (3+ / 0-)
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    NY brit expat, JayRaye, northsylvania

    a survival emergency, not that the survival of the poorest is not an emergency.  it is just that when we frame this question in terms of how all of us can survive, it has more power in my opinion.  and it is capitalism which has put us in the position of threatening the survival of all of humanity and most of the life on the planet.  

    for me this is the most potent discussion to have right now.

    only when we have passed this emergency do we have the luxury of discussing the rights of everyone.

    this makes the argument a practical one.  how best to structure human civilization so that we all do well so that we maximize survival for all?

    i used to think that 7 billion people was an impossible crisis, but i do see one upside to it: there are seven billion minds which can create potential solutions.  however if we waste the vast majority of those minds, we are doing ourselves no good.

    so we have to rely on the best trained minds in the most physically secure environments to come up with solutions.

    Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

    by BlueDragon on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 11:50:18 AM PST

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    •  I agree, I was just responding to what (3+ / 0-)
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      BlueDragon, JayRaye, UnaSpenser

      I thought was an inadequate framing of the idea of rights ... the discussion can be addressed that way, but as you said it traps us in a discussion of rights rather than fairness and justice which we were addressing in the link which I think is a different discussion than one of rights ... that is why we didn't address the argument in that construction when we were talking.

      I agree that the idea of maximising survival for all and not just a small few who are either lucky to be born in a wealthy country is an excellent way of looking at it. I have always found the idea that a piece of land is claimed as being owned by someone ridiculous and someone's claim to property is considered paramount as opposed to someone's survival demonstrates the lack of fairness inherent to a system which is based upon private ownership.

      "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

      by NY brit expat on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:01:08 PM PST

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      •  i don't think it is an inadequate framing at all (3+ / 0-)
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        NY brit expat, JayRaye, UnaSpenser

        i just think that practically, under the system that we have all been trained in -- the capitalist system -- it is hard to discuss rights in this way.  it is not the framing.  it is the indoctrination that the majority have swallowed which is in the way.

        to put it another way: it is impractical in the long run to be unfair.

        if everyone perceives his/her rights as equal, all will contribute without resentment.

        this is the framing that the right wing uses with a great deal of success.  they have convinces about 50% of Americans that helping others is unfair to those who get less help while the help they do get is invisible to them.

        Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

        by BlueDragon on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:15:36 PM PST

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        •  It is a problematic framing because (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlueDragon, JayRaye

          rights are a liberal construct; they are useful for some things but the discussion goes way beyond a discussion of rights. We can limit the discussion to it, but it would be an inadequate discussion for the left. It would be fine for liberals, but we need to go beyond it.

          "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

          by NY brit expat on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:40:54 PM PST

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          •  we need to think of rights (3+ / 0-)
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            NY brit expat, JayRaye, jarbyus

            as the right of succeeding generations to have a decent life as in the native american idea of planning for seven generations.

            then rights becomes a larger moral discussion which takes into account the rights of the entire ecosystem, not just the individual.  

            my rights end where they impact the ecosystem's right to not so much be in balance, but continue in some viable way.

            Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

            by BlueDragon on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:49:24 PM PST

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