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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meetup: Capitalism - Is It Fair and Just? (108 comments)

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  •  First place, you are basing all this on a monetary (9+ / 0-)

    system of exchange.  Who says what artists produce is worth more or less than those who produce luxury clothes or football stadiums? Who determines that the value of basic vegetables is more or less than steaks? then there is the relationship between the producer and consumer under capitalism.  The value of the goods the producer produces requires consumers. Who gets to consume what is not only based on their laziness, inability, greediness, etc. but on how much money they have to purchase goods.

    The government support that we provide to airlines is only necessary because there are competing airlines who refuse to merge into one cooperative airline and we have to pay for th absurdity of flying several half empty planes from several airlines at the same time to the same destination so the companies won't fail in this "free market" system.  

    If this seems absurd, so do the positions you are raising. The real absurdity is that all of this is based on the presumption of a money economy rather than real value or real efficiency to meet people's needs.

    •  It is also a classic example (5+ / 0-)

      of a profound inability to think out of the box.

    •  Other than money... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      misslegalbeagle

      ...and market-based mechanisms, how do you propose to figure out the value of different things? I submit that the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. It's a simple and efficient calculation.

      How would you do the calculation?

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:11:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It resources are distributed (6+ / 0-)

        on the basis of need, there is no need for quantitative valuation.

        •  "to each according...." can actually happen in (6+ / 0-)

          an economy that thinks more about communitarianism and common-pool resources in the context of minimizing exploitation rather than trying to create metrics for "fairness" in a system that privileges property rights

          Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ “If someone has a tool and is trying to negate your existence it would be reasonable to reciprocate in kind with your own tool.” - Dalai Lama XIV (sic)

          by annieli on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:15:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Re (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          misslegalbeagle

          How do you determine "need"?

          And if there is surplus, how do you allocate that?

          And if there is a deficit such that everyone's needs can't be met, how do you allocate that?

          The idea that you don't need numerical valuations is nonsense, and it's not a lack of "out of box" thinking to recognize that fact.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:25:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Surpluses and decicits (6+ / 0-)

            are artificial economic constructs. Need can be determined by a community setting standards through a democratic process.

            You compulsive need to label anything that doesn't fit with your personal prejudices as nonsense is classic rigidity.  

            •  Yeah (0+ / 0-)

              They're 'artificial' economic constructs until your trading partners refuse to trade with you because you haven't paid your bills.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 05:33:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  an adequate supply of food (8+ / 0-)

            shelter, education and medicine is pretty easy to define.

            if we have a true deficit in any category, we can decide what to do in context at that point.

            i am not convinced we have a true deficit.  we certainly have a distribution problem.

            charles eisenstein points out that we might have up to an 80% excess production capacity on this planet at this moment for goods.

            this is not the accepted message.  scarcity is the accepted message, but if we have so much scarcity, why do we produce so much garbage in the form of products which are meant to break or wear out almost immediately?  that fact alone suggests that we have excess capacity.  hoarding as a psychological disease suggests we have excess capacity.

            i think the scarcity we are likely to experience in the future has to do with the destruction of global resources via over consumption and overproduction of garbage products in everything from cars to appliances to clothing.

            Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

            by BlueDragon on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:34:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  need is a very easy thing to determine (6+ / 0-)

            it is what is needed for human beings to not only survive but to enjoy life, it is not only subsistence and reproduction but more. We have no difficulty producing food, the problem is that the system is such that much of it is wasted, what is produced is not wanted or needed and it is not distributed to all those that need it.

            Deficits in this day and age are a thing of the past, we can easily meet people's needs outside the context of a system based upon profitability which not only skews what is produced, but who gets it and how much of it they get. You need to think outside the box a bit more.

            "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

            by NY brit expat on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:39:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the idea of deficits is a holdover (4+ / 0-)

              from earlier emergency times and we seem to be obsessed with memories/experiences of deficits.

              i agree, we can easily see that we no longer have deficits if we stop wasting.  indeed, the pressure to waste is an indication that we have surpluses.

              the pressure to stimulate the global economy by destroying whole systems through war so that we can rebuild them is strong evidence that we are living in an age of surplus but we do not recognize this simple fact.

              can everyone have granite counter tops and/or should they?  nope.  they are a ridiculous waste of resources and not all that beautiful or practical as counter tops.

              we are wasting everything around us in an orgy of hatred for the truly beautiful.  

              real beauty around us will satisfy us far, far more and the carrying cost for the planet will be tremendously reduced.

              one good set of furniture for a lifetime which can be passed on to other generations will satisfy us much more than millions of garbage sofas.

              Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

              by BlueDragon on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 12:46:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree completely! (5+ / 0-)

                actually on everything, still have my parents' bedroom set from 1940 and it is in beautiful shape; we are destroying everything to keep a system whose sole purpose is making profits in control because we are afraid to move beyond the imaginable. So, even when we know that the system is destroying everything that is important, we are afraid to think of other things as we have been conditioned to think w/in very small boxes. Breaking people's belief and fear is one of the hardest things we on the left have to contend with.

                "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

                by NY brit expat on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 01:06:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  right now I need a projection tv (0+ / 0-)

            and I think it would be appropriate if someone else gave it to me.   I've been telling my girl friend how great it would be if I set one up to watch movies.  Who can argue with that?  

            Someone better buy it for me... like, right now.

            To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition.” ― Woody Allen

            by soros on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 09:37:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  why do we have to "value" things? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NY brit expat, BlueDragon, JayRaye
      •  I would pay for libraries. (4+ / 0-)

        I would not pay for wars. Obviously the value of wars is more important to my government and yours, but that is the problem with mixing "what makes a profit" with "what benefits society as a whole". Capitalism in a complex Western country with a hierarchical government is just as bastardised as Marx was in Stalinist Russia.

        "We are monkeys with money and guns". Tom Waits

        by northsylvania on Sun Jan 13, 2013 at 02:22:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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