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View Diary: When you conquer a people they may never really like it (24 comments)

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  •  I reccd the diary, but (1+ / 0-)
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    don mikulecky

    You write:

    A quick glance at series of maps of Palestine over the years shows the ongoing take over of territory by the Israelis.
    Upon which maps are you basing this idea? Land mass, total population, property ownership... there are a lot of different ways to define territory, and this diary could use more detail.
    The Palestinians have little left and it begins to look like they may face eventual extermination if they try to stay.
    Based on...
    In what ways and when have Palestinians lost land - I agree that some have, but I would like to know what facts you are using here.
    What do you mean by "extermination"? Are you of the opinion that the Israeli government is practicing ethnic cleansing? If yes, intentionally or unintentionally?
    I ask this because it seems to be that, if the intention of Israel was to either kill all the Palestinians or at least remove them from the land they are going about it very inefficiently.
    Here the native population has had no where to go and has barely escaped extermination.
    How do we define native population? How far back in history do we go?
    Engaging in the "we were here first" back and forth tends to make the overall situation in Israel and the territories worse rather than better. This is because as humans we often let emotions rule over rationality and it is very easy for both Palestinians and Jewish Israelis to make an effective "we were here first" emotional argument.

    The way this diary is written very subtly lays blame for the current situation at the feet of the last 45 or even 64+ years of Israeli policies. I am not sure if that was your intention but the style of writing and the selective quotes and points make that happen. For example, the rest of the Wikipedia page about Deir Yassin gives much better context about what was going on and just how chaotic things were between different groups of Jewish groups at the time.

    I recc'd, though, for your final paragraph, which I think raises the most important (and depressing) points about this whole situation.

    If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
    If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
    If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

    by A Gutin Daf on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 12:45:08 PM PST

    •  You know you can have many takes on this (0+ / 0-)

      All of them spell the same thing.  That's why I wrote the diary.  When people take over places where other people live there is always conflict.  Trying to make morasl judgments is futile!

      An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

      by don mikulecky on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 02:21:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But the discussions is important (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        don mikulecky, JNEREBEL

        in order to figure out actual cause and effect instead of the cause and effect as presented by the propagandists on each side.

        It therefore becomes important to figure out whether the anger is about the State of Israel as a conqueror or whether that is just another excuse for even older conflicts and arguments. We also need to examine the role of outside actors in the Arab Israeli conflict - the way the US helps to maintain a power balance between Israel and Egypt, for example, in order to prevent either from getting too strong and destabilizing the whole enchilada (or ball of falafel, in this case).

        All of these things have to be part of a larger conversation in order to resolve the conflict, which also means that, if there are not facts to back up statements about, say, Palestinian extermination then those statements are best left out of the discussion about desired outcomes in the region.

        If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
        If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
        If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

        by A Gutin Daf on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 02:43:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This needs a book or two to deal with. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          A Gutin Daf

          Start with the Nazis but that also is a false start.  The Western anti-Semites pitted Jew against Arab to exploit both.  The whole history of Western Colonialism is at the root.

          An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

          by don mikulecky on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 03:08:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Colonialism played a part but just one of the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            don mikulecky

            tricky issues in that is that what happens now is affected by what happened the last time before the Brits that Europe tried colonial invasion in this area. It was called teh Crusades, and it lasted a hundred years or so, and then was gone as if it had never been, save in the romantic memories of Europeans who loved the idea of individual returning Crusaders, not what they did or what happened to the people they did it to, and what the response of that people was. Saladin was not an accidental discovery.

             The fate of that attempt at colonization changes entirely the analysis from anything North American, because in that case, those who were colonized, the ancestors of Palestinians, in fact threw out the colonists successfully and kept them out thereafter until WWI. That success on the part of the ancestors of Palestinians is something which present Palestinians know and respond to.

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