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View Diary: Bernstein has news for you liberals (208 comments)

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  •  are you familiar with that phrase (0+ / 0-)

    "tyranny of the majority"?

    Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

    by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:18:37 AM PST

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    •  yes, and it doesn't apply here (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mkor7, shaharazade, KJG52

      The idea that requiring Senate super-majorities will defend oppressed minorities is not grounded in reality.

      The filibuster is actually another tool to oppress them - witness the history of Civil Rights legislation.

      The only minority interests the filibuster protects are the interests of the 1 % - exactly the ones who don't need extra protection.

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:55:09 AM PST

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      •  wrong definition of minority in the context (0+ / 0-)

        the filibuster is a tool of the senate minority party to block legislation they don't have the votes to defeat.

        Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

        by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:03:00 AM PST

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        •  and that makes sense why? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          shaharazade

          majority rule is not perfect, but it is better than the alternative.

          Filibuster makes our government worse.

          I guess you all are loyally getting behind whatever minor change the Dems can muster votes for.

          An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

          by mightymouse on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:23:38 AM PST

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          •  It makes sense (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shaharazade, Calamity Jean, KJG52, sweatyb

            There are times when a majority could be passing legislation that is so highly objectionable to the minority that they'd be willing to risk political fallout in order to block it.  That is how the filibuster is supposed to be used, and once that is exactly how it worked.  However, in the 70's the senate rules changed, allowing for filibusters that were risk free.  That has opened the door to the situation that we are currently in.  

            The filibuster has been around for a long time.  It is only in recent years that it has been abused.

            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

            by Triscula on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:30:37 AM PST

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            •  "How the filibuster is supposed to be used" (0+ / 0-)

              That right there is your problem.

              There is nothing that says anywhere "how the filibuster is supposed to be used."

              In historical memory, the talking filibuster has been most famously used to block civil rights.

              Which was, I guess, highly objectionable to the minority of white Southern segregationists.

              There is something honorable about this?

              Really, majority rule is the best bet. It is no guarantee of good outcomes - but the super-majority for regular business is worse.

              We have plenty of legitimate checks & balances w/o the filibuster.

              An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

              by mightymouse on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:41:40 AM PST

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            •  Then VOTE THEM OUT! (0+ / 0-)

              Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. Mark Twain

              by Deathtongue on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:08:28 PM PST

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    •  Tyranny of the Minority (7+ / 0-)

      We have a Constitution to prevent tyranny. Filibusters just create a tyranny of the minority, as we have seen proven for years.

      The filibuster's legitimate purpose is not to prevent the majority from voting. It's merely to prevent the majority from stopping the minority from being heard on the Senate floor. So just require the minority be given the same amount of time the majority got on the floor, or one Senate day (whichever is longer), to be sure they're always heard.

      Then move on to the vote. Do not give the minority the power to prevent the government from acting when majorities in both Congressional chambers, and the president, act on the power created by the Constitution. Loopholes shouldn't be more powerful than our Constitutional democratic republic.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:57:20 AM PST

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      •  and when the GOP holds the reins again? (0+ / 0-)
        Do not give the minority the power to prevent the government from acting when majorities in both Congressional chambers, and the president, act on the power created by the Constitution. Loopholes shouldn't be more powerful than our Constitutional democratic republic.
        would that still apply?

        Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

        by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:04:30 AM PST

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        •  minority rule hurts more than it helps (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          shaharazade

          overall, the filibuster is not your friend.

          An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

          by mightymouse on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:01:02 AM PST

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          •  Rule changes would remedy this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calamity Jean

            As it stands today, the filibuster does allow for "minority rule". However, the rule changes that the diarist is discussing could eliminate that problem, and would certainly improve the situation significantly.

            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

            by Triscula on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:32:42 AM PST

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            •  doesn't eliminate the problem (0+ / 0-)

              If the GOP minority talks endlessly, they rule. the problem of minority rule remains.

              The way to end minority rule, dump the filibuster.

              This proposal is, as best as I understand, what the Senate majority can agree on. It doesn't mean it's the best proposal, though.

              An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

              by mightymouse on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:36:18 AM PST

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        •  Yes, I am not afraid of majority rule. (0+ / 0-)

          If the nation doesn't like our ideas then I am prepared to accept that. Having elections every now and then is a good remedy for bad legislative decisions.

          Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. Mark Twain

          by Deathtongue on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:12:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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