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  •  WTF? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avilyn
    vagrants
    Nice framing. Do you still use the word fairy too?

    "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

    by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:58:24 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  actually in the real world, these folks (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      prefer being called vagrants.

      They definitely do NOT like being called 'homeless' because they're not looking for "homes."

      If you actually talked to the folks I describe in the real world,  you would know that.

      •  I've spent at least half of my adult life homeless (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avilyn, wader, mookins, trumpeter

        I'm not a vagrant.

        Vagrant is not an academically accepted term and as I said quite inflammatory which is why I called you on it and used another disparagement that was also last used in the same time period to show how outdated the term is.

        "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:12:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, different people in different parts of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt

          the country use different language, sometimes people use language that's quite un politically correct. I seriously doubt, despite our disagreements, that your lifestyle is anything like the lifestyle of the people in that gallery, and other vagrants in my town, who, again, cheerfully (when they're sober enough to communicate) acknowledge they're not looking for homes,

          •  No this isn't colloquial framing of a subgroup (5+ / 0-)

            The sociological dynamics of homeless existence creates active efforts to avoid cohesion. The type of cohesion required for something as consistent as language development is not there.

            Please post links of the term being used in multiple locations to prove your assertion that the term is the use of language to empower instead of demean.

            "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

            by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:30:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't know about "multiple locations" I know (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              chantedor

              only what the street people here in my town and in my county tell me personally, and also what other people (social workers, police, volunteers who clean up the camps, my friend Juice the surveyer, who is brave and compassionate enough to go where the cops won't go, and business owners) tell me also.

              They tell me they don't like being called "the homeless" because it defines them in terms of something they are lacking, and assumes they are failures who can't get "a home," when they're not actually seeking one.

              As far as links, well, Horace, there's a real world, and in my real world, the street vagrants we talk to locally, the ones that live under the bridges and shit in the creeks and are in the police log over and over again, are not the sort of "homeless" people who live in their cars and take their laptops to the library parking lot to log in to the internet to tend their blog.

              The library does have a few computers, and some of our local street vagrants do hang out at the library during the early part of the day. So certainly I suppose it's possible some of them post about how they're not "homeless," they are living as wild vagrants on the street.  But I don't know of any links.

      •  Do you seriously think (5+ / 0-)

        That requiring permits for homelessness is a solution?

        Because you seem to be satisfied with this response.

        Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

        by deviant24x on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:13:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  considering that I didn't actually mention (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt

          the permits, I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

          the solution to "homelessness" is to ensure that everybody who wants a home has one. lots of ways to get to that point.

          The solution to the problem of folks who prefer to sleep on the streets? I doubt issuing a few "permits" is going to help much, although if you read the story, there are those sleeping on the streets who seem to be happy about the idea they could get a permit.

          What will the local police do to those who don't have a "permit"? Just pretty much exactly whatever they do now, which isn't any kind of a solution. I can assure you it's pretty likely the cops know already which of those people sleeping on the streets do not cause problems, without having to see a permit.

      •  plenty of reason to avoid shelters besides (6+ / 0-)

        the desire to drink to passing out.

        After all the shelters may be run by narrow-minded jerks passing judgement on them!

        how about we stop making insidious generalities about people with serious problems

        fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

        by mollyd on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:10:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They won't let me into a shelter. (5+ / 0-)

          I'm Transgender.

          "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

          by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:29:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  molly, do you talk to the street people? (0+ / 0-)

          do you talk to the police?

          Do you talk to the people who volunteer to clean up after them? to clean up the creeks and the homeless camps, including the piles of shit?

          Do you talk to the down-to-earth people (in our local own, a Deadhead on a bicycle who isn't a suit in any sense of the word) who are paid to survey the local vagrants about what they want and need for the county agencies, trying to find a solution?

          Do you talk to the people who run meal programs and food banks that feed street vagrants, and also those people and families who don't want to live on the street, but who would have to without the community's help?

          Do you talk to the business owners who refuse to sell already drunk street vagrants liquor, despite the potential consequences? Broken windows for one.

          I do.  And that's what's behind what I wrote.

          p.s.: Did you look at the gallery of photos I posted? Real people, at least a couple of whom I know, and one of whom I like who gives me compliments. It's a sad story, this revolving door from the street to jail to street to jail again and again and again, thanks to alcohol and crank addiction, sometimes heroin. From a paper far to the "left" of Daily Kos, but not up in the ivory tower, the Anderson Valley Advertiser.

          We have a problem with those who don't have homes because of poverty; and we have a problem with street vagrants who are proud to be living in a way society doesn't approve of, even if it kills them early, which it does.

          Two separate problems. Platitudes won't help. Neither will denial that right now -- in towns everywhere across the country -- it's the police who are already, by default, doing the job of "dealing with" the "homeless" if by "homeless' you mean the street vagrants.

          •  i've lived with them (0+ / 0-)

            and worked with them

            fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

            by mollyd on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:17:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  then you should understand (0+ / 0-)

              the difference between the social problems: to repeat: 1. poverty, layoffs, foreclosures causing some (way too many) people to lose their homes or not be able to afford rent, and have nowhere to live, a situation that they want to get out of ASAP, and, as I said, in my town, these folks get help. The Obama administration funded an emergency preventing homelessness program, which helped those facing immediate homelessness who had a prospect of getting back on their feet, by paying rent and bills for a while, and that helped in the last few years, and these people do not pass out in the streets or sleep under bridges (maybe in their cars for a while) or participate in the revolving door to jail; 2. street vagrants.

              The story originally posted here about "permits" in AZ was addressing problem #2. If you read it, you can see that.

              Problem #2 is made up of a number of different kinds of people. In my town, some of them are people who would have been committed to the county mental institution before Gov. Reagan shut them down. Most, if not all of them, are chronic drunks and many of them do crank, there is also some heroin (I know which of the abandoned houses downtown is the shooting gallery, thanks to Juice.) The police know them all, and they know their stories. Many of us who live here know them and their stories, too.

              We know Mohawk Mike, we know the handsome Indian guy with the white pony tail and the guitar on his back who occasionally gets so abusive to his mother, that she throws him out of the house to sleep wild for a while, I pitched him to register him to vote in 2010; he said he was registered and would vote for my local candidate. We know Bill whose pants are always falling down, who is one of the most pathetic sleepers under the bridges. Most of the street vagrants we see sober sometimes, and drunk most of the time, but I don't remember ever seeing Bill sober. Then there's Bobblehead, I know his real name, too, but forget it right now, who walks up and down Main Street with a head set, bobbling his head up and down to music. He disappears for longer periods of time, sent off to treatment is the local theory. And he comes back, and he's friendly, waving a greeting, and calm for a while, and gradually deterioriates mentally and physically, gets aggressive, and starts getting his name back in the police log again. just a few of the most well-known street vagrants. Jail is not the proper way to deal with these folks, but when a business owner calls and says, Bill's passed out on my threshold again, or a mother calls and says "there's a drunken guy who won't stop trying to swing the kids in the park" what are the cops supposed to do? Jail is their only option. They don't like it but the town demands they "do something."

              We also get transients/hobos, who are traveling through town and don't stay long, many of those are younger people though, with still quite a few Vietnam vets. They don't generally cause trouble, unless you're bothered by hitchhiking or people sitting with signs "Will Work for Bud" during marijuana harvest season.

              To lump all these people in together as "homeless" is not a helpful approach.

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