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View Diary: President Obama can and must take serious action on climate change with and without Congress (160 comments)

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  •  Multiple things (13+ / 0-)

    1.  Need to be careful. This is simply false: "new Wind generation is just about the cheapest electricity on the planet, 3.3 to 6.5 cents per KW hour."  New wind might be in among the cheapest NEW power but it certainly isn't less expensive than existing, for example, nuclear power plants that have had their capital costs paid off already.

    2.  Sorry, I disagree seriously about the carbon fee (tax is lousy word) dependent on how the resources are used. If the resources are used productively (such as massive investments in deploying energy efficiency and renewables), the spark to the economy will be beyond the carbon tax impacts.

    3.  Re the carbon tax, again, this boils down to a version of 'doing something about the environment will hurt the economy'.  The environment vs economy is a dangerously false framing that hinders forward progress.

    Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

    by A Siegel on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:41:36 PM PST

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    •  I've been trying for 30 years or so to do my... (15+ / 0-)

      ...part to pass along the news that the environment and the economy are not two separate entities but inextricably interwoven with one another.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:02:05 PM PST

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      •  We are ... (7+ / 0-)

        roughly in the 98% arena of agreement.

        And, yes, I am well aware that you understand / advocate / discuss that it is economy + environment not economy vs the environment. In any event, with broken eco-systems, we will have a devastated economic system. Thus, we need to get our act together on environment or else face catastrophic economic consequences.

        Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

        by A Siegel on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:46:15 PM PST

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      •  Crackdown in GHG would CREATE jobs. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SolarMom, Roger Fox

        Fundamentals:

        1. Corporate profits, and corporate cash-on-hand, are at record highs.

        2. Mass unemployment is not cured by #1 because of lack of demand.

        Cracking down on greenhouse gas emissions would create demand for green energy; this demand would create green energy jobs. This would help, not hurt, the economy because it would put a chunk of that idle capital (cash-on-hand) to work.

        More details: http://www.dailykos.com/...

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:48:26 PM PST

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      •  I've said this in numerous comments (6+ / 0-)

        We need memes:

        Clean Energy = Jobs

        Wind Farms = People Power

        [Your slogan here]...

        “Better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference.” -- FDR, 1936

        by SolarMom on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:23:02 PM PST

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        •  20% from wind in 20 yrs=500k jobs (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SolarMom

          Some of them extremely well paying, offshore wind, like oil rig jobs, in fact the same oil platform construction companies build platforms for HVDC marine grid equipment to support offshore turbines.

          These offshore jobs pay from 90k-120k

          FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

          by Roger Fox on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:05:50 PM PST

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          •  I like it! (your subject line meme) n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roger Fox

            “Better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference.” -- FDR, 1936

            by SolarMom on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:13:47 PM PST

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            •  Solar nearly the same (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SolarMom, JayDean

              and HVDC supergrid another 400k jobs.
              Pumped hydro storage, 260k to 380k, solar thermal about the same.

              I wrote about the numbers of jobs, last year, just going by memory here.

              FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

              by Roger Fox on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:27:01 PM PST

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    •  Environment vs economy and false framing (8+ / 0-)

      The infrastructure of this century will include a truly massive renewable energy collection system. Building that new infrastructure is the future of economic growth worldwide.

    •  Did I write N E W generation? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      A Siegel
      Right now new Wind generation is just about the cheapest electricity on the planet, 3.3 to 6.5 cents per KW hour
      .

      Well, kind of. This would have been clearer>

      Right now new Wind generation is just about the cheapest new generation on the planet, 3.3 to 6.5 cents per KW hour.

      FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

      by Roger Fox on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:11:30 PM PST

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      •  Perhaps I should (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roger Fox

        have written, "to clarify because while I'm pretty sure you understand but others might ..."

        Truth is that people frequently conflate and confuse these.  I can't count the # of times where I've had (semi-informed) advocates of new nuclear power make the argument that "nuclear power is the cheapest electricity going on the grid" and had them confused because they didn't realize the economic structure (100% paid off capital costs which, putting aside that minor annoyance of decommissioning, is about 85% of the per kWh costs) that makes today's nuclear power cheap to send to the grid and why that is essentially irrelevant to the question of what one build's today.

        Also, by the way, there is the issue with your prices in that this is not the dispatchable price -- perhaps add 1 cent for storage / power management?

        In any event, my more serious disagreement is that I think these are not aggressive enough numbers in terms of targeting clean electricity (look at what Germany is achieving with the Energiewende).  Not only can we do even better than this, we should ... However, if we set targets along the lines you've laid out, we can 'surprise ourselves' with the rapidity of success and barrel past those figures.

        Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

        by A Siegel on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 03:58:17 AM PST

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        •  LCO cost to generate from (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          A Siegel

          Berkeley Nat Lab.

          Right.... not dispatchable, but Levelized Cost of Operation over 20 years is common, no?

          Barrel past, oh yes.... When Vesta or GE comes out with a 16mw turbine, even if the cost to generate doubles, output is quadrupled, so we can see the Berkeley numbers cut in half. And that would be very attractive.

          RE conflating, U R right, comparing new generation to new generation is OK. Old compared to new is not.

          FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

          by Roger Fox on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:27:03 PM PST

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