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View Diary: Bush Crimes Back On The Table !!!! (41 comments)

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  •  In the meantime, cut Obama and Pelosi some slack (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pistolSO, divineorder, sebastianguy99

    Obama is still cleaning up President Bush's mess so I have no doubt he's taking things into consideration.  After all, he recently traveled to Burma for outreaching so at least we've got a president who at least works to be more universal, rather than one who has a self-interest.

    •  You are welcome to give him some slack. I already (7+ / 0-)

      gave him 4 years of it.

      RE Burma, he said some similar things about democracy in the middle east but here at home we continue to see terrible abuse of police powers during the Occupy and other protests, so no, not giving  any slack.

      I absolutely LOVE what Nancy accomplished during her reign as Speaker of the House,  but when I remember this area of Bushco torture accountability  I have a constant fight not to disallow all her other good points.  

      Move Single Payer Forward? Join 18,000 Doctors of PNHP and 185,000 member National Nurses United

      by divineorder on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 12:42:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the Occupy protests are dying down (0+ / 0-)

        If you're not going to cut Obama some slack, then mount some protests in Washington DC or hammer down the DNC.  I think continuing to write on Daily Kos is not going to make the cause any more just.

        •  say, there are 600,000 users on dailykos... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chacounne, divineorder

          that would make a pretty decent sized demo in dc.  i've been to a boatload of demos in dc and darned few of them are that large.

          do you think that the activists on daily kos could be motivated to get off of their rusty dustys and put their feet in the street?

          i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

          by joe shikspack on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:00:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Only a fraction of that are real and/or active (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joe shikspack

            users. We had a problem with computer generated spam users for a while that ran the numbers up to absurd levels.

            Even counting the lurkers I don't think there are more than a few tens of thousands who read regularly at the moment. Not that that wouldn't be a demonstration to take note of, but health, financial and cross country transportation issues are all factors in how many we can field at any given time.

            Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. The Druid

            by FarWestGirl on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:11:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's the problem (0+ / 0-)

              There's no consistency among the protests.  I didn't live during the Vietnam War era but in watching a lot of documentaries and even the great "Hearts and Minds" film, the protests during the Vietnam War were organized, TOO organized as a matter of fact.  A number of people had walkie-talkies with them everywhere and that in itself was good.  Camp grounds were set around and people didn't even care about getting arrested.

              However, organizers of the Vietnam War recognized that putting protests all around the country wasn't enough.  They had to focus on their prime target:  Washington DC.

              Hell, even the Iraq War protests have been lackluster at best, at least until Cindy Sheehan came into the picture.  She was smart because she protested on President Bush's own turf in Crawford, Texas.  

              We need to learn from Cindy Sheehan on strategy.

          •  I don't doubt that at all (0+ / 0-)

            But again, centralize ALL of the Occupy protests in Washington DC.  That is the nexus of the federal government.

            So you're asking me, "do you think that the activists on daily kos could be motivated to get off of their rusty dustys and put their feet in the street?" in reference to 600,000 users on Daily Kos?

            I say, sure.  If our country is important, what's stopping us all?

    •  We were told to wait until after the election. (4+ / 0-)

      It is after the election. The President told us to push him. THIS IS THE TIME !

      I will not remain silent.

      I have a responsibility.

      YOU have a responsibility.

             Standing for justice and accountability,
                            For Dan,

      Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

      by Chacounne on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 01:09:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't remain silent (0+ / 0-)

        But please, use a better outlet for your politics and your goals.  Daily Kos may be a good way to recruit people but like many places, it's a blog.  It's the Internet.  The Internet is great at getting people worked up and registered and commited but there are also a ton of flakes.  You won't find as many flakes if you get people motivated in person and register them in your mailing list.  

        And as I posted to another person's post, mount a protest in Washington DC and centralize all of the protests there.  We need to think Vietnam War eraesque, not Occupyesque.  In other words, protests in the Vietnam War were organized whereas the Occupy was all over the place (even though the protests did make a difference, BIG time).

        Again, my point of view isn't to shut you up.  It's to understand what accomplishments have been made, what has been done during Obama's presidency and what has to be changed.  But the question is, how are you REALLY going to change it?

        Besides, look at how many corporations are going crazy because of Obamacare?   You're not mentioning that.  And of course, the Iraq War was continued because of corporate profits.  Now the influence over corporations has lessened.

        In fact, now is a better chance than ever to fight back and not give up.  Even Obama mentioned on Jon Stewart's Daily Show that he still wants to close Guantanamo Bay and even mentioned the reason for the delay in that is because of a systematic process in Congress.  Congress didn't allow Obama to close Guantanamo.  In return, fire back at all the Congressional members who voted no and have them all (yes, in all 50 states) challenged if they won't budge.

        You just have to think creatively how you're going to bring about your cause into effect.

        •  cool, do you know how to get permits (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          and organize such and event?  

          i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

          by joe shikspack on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:06:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Late in reply (0+ / 0-)

            Sorry for being late in reply but...

            Are you worried about permits or your country?  People in the Vietnam War didn't care about permits.  They cared about one thing and one thing only:  THEIR COUNTRY.

            Seriously, people nowadays are so cautious it's as if they're worried about something so proper as getting a permit.  This is so American, it's ridiculous.  You see French citizens protest against their own government over controversial laws ALL THE TIME and the French government listens.  There are also regular protests by Palestinians against Israel but at a greater, more extreme level.  We don't need to reach that extreme in protests but we need to take a stand no matter what.

            Besides, organization and negotiation with the police department at the city of Washington DC can be done with protests at massive levels so long as they're orderly.  Besides, the DC area is one of the top 5 most liberal cities in the U.S.  

            In the meantime, why don't people on here continue to reach out to Congressional Democrats, namely those who are anti-war like Dennis Kucinich and people like him who can hold hearings on the Bush crimes?  Do we REALLY need protests?  Why don't people on here pull a John Kerry during the Vietnam War era and testify to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee?

            I mean, it's always protests in America we're thinking about.  ALWAYS PROTESTS.  Seriously, we're NOT in the Bush years anymore!

        •  I have tried for several years to organize (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          a March for Legal Accountability, in DC. Then my disabilities made it impossible for me to use a regular phone, which makes it very difficult to contact the organizations big enough to make the logistics of a large march , . I've emailed to the bulk email addresses, but have never received a response. HOWEVER, at Netroots Nation in June I sat at the same table with two of the people from Human Rights First, and am working with them to  bring together such a march.

          Communicating and posting on DKos has been very important, because there are people who care about and fight for the issue every day from all over North America, and one of the places we share information, organize,  and bring new people to the cause is right here.

          And yes,  joe shikspack's point is a good one, although I have a lawyer in DC all lined up get the permit when we are ready. Instead of making assumptions, and carping about what we should and should not be doing, how about helping with the heavy lifting.

          BTW, in 2010, I moved  Vancouver from to Ottawa, 3000 miles, to push the Canadian government to repatriate Omar Khadr, so I have put my body where my mouth is.

                   Standing for justice and accountability,
                                  For Dan,

          Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

          by Chacounne on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:47:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think protests now may be counterproductive (0+ / 0-)

            But I've been posting on Daily Kos for a while now and I'm a regular user like yourself.  However, I've been on online forums much earlier than Daily Kos or any grassroots online websites were founded and I can tell you, there are A LOT of flakes on the Internet.  That's just the nature of it.  Daily Kos is an exception because people really do give a damn.

            However, the problem with Daily Kos is that people here don't always think objectively and outside the box.  Protests are important but only as a last resort.  I mean, it is entirely possible to communicate with Dennis Kucinich and other anti-war Democrats to hold more hearings on the Bush crimes.  Those can be productive.

            Protests on the other hand, might not be as productive as you might think nowadays, especially now that Obama has been in office for four years now and re-elected.  He's already been rolling back just about every executive order from Bush's years and a lot of craziness so we're moving in the right direction.  Now we just need to clean up the Bush crimes and other messes and we're good to go.

            •  Ummmm, (0+ / 0-)

              if you look at your FIRST comment in this diary you urge us to bring people to DC for a huge protest. Now you are saying that protests now may be counterproductive. I am not buying what you are selling.

              Yes, I agree that more hearing is a good idea. I have an invitation to meet with Senator Whitehouse the next time I am in DC, which will hopefully be in February.

                              Standing for justice and accountability,
                                                For Dan,

              Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

              by Chacounne on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:10:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're getting sidetracked too much (0+ / 0-)

                I'm offering an objective analysis into addressing your cause in, should I say, a more reasonable approach with all possibilities thought out.

                People today don't realize but there are a lot of business skills they can learn to do outreach.  IT, Social Media, Internet, even programming, technology, the works.

                I've been accustomed to computers and IT technology before even the movie Wargames was released and if you recall, that film was about the big supercomputer WOPR which almost caused WWIII in the film.  I must say, not enough people on here recognize the potential to maximize.

                How about instead of just simply talking about protesting vs. communicating with Congress, let's list all of the possibilities of:

                1)  What has or hasn't been done
                2)  What we want to do but can't do
                3)  What we have accomplished but didn't do as much of.  And for what reason(s)?
                4)  What would be a great idea and we haven't accomplished before?
                5)  What can we do that is organized that isn't always done by protesting?
                6)  How can outreach be done to people at all levels without protesting?   Can this be done to pressure those like Congressmen in a campaign or tactic where thousands and thousands of people e-mail or call them every day until they hold hearings?

                Strategy my friend, strategy.  If you care for your country so much, you need to think strategy.  Not enough people on Daily Kos work in business but you don't need to be Mitt Romney in order to work effectively in marketing.

                •  You actually don't know who works (0+ / 0-)

                  or who has worked in business on Daily Kos unless they have actually told you.

                  I am working on a several pronged strategy:
                     a) in visits to DC after the inauguration to lobby senators
                                   and congressional reps, and the administration
                     b) an email and letter writing campaign to senators and
                                   congressional reps and the administration
                     c) a youtube campaign with tojustice rture survivors and
                                   family members
                     d) the March for Accountability

                          Standing for justice and accountability,
                                         For Dan,

                  Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                  by Chacounne on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:59:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then why don't they tell me? (0+ / 0-)

                    I barely hear enough talk about IT or even business analysis on Daily Kos.  In fact, NO ONE talks about business analysis.  No one even understands what it is or even what a business analyst is.  Well, perhaps they can explain it to me and I'd be happy to listen.

                    That's good that you are working on a strategy at the moment.  Now, in the premise of marketing:

                    1)  What are the response rates?  As in, what kind of people are responding?  How many people are signing up to your campaign?  Is it growing rapidly or slowly?

                    2)  Have you used the same message as before or are you looking to change the message based on responses from activists or non-activists?

                    3)  For the You Tube campaign, how many stats are you receiving? (i.e. how many comments)?

                    I don't need to ask more questions but I invite you to offer me some data.

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