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View Diary: Prospect of earning more than $250,000 terrifies business owner, because Obama (395 comments)

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    •  How did she become a Chiropractor? (33+ / 0-)

      it takes learnings and stuff.

      firstly chiropractors just don't make that much*

      second its only a tax on profits, third she is really dumb and has an even dumber accountant.

      *the exception is those who are scamming medicare but as a good republican one would home she does not take that socialist money.

      there is only one reality, republicans just forget at times

      by Bloke on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:17:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How? They're not real doctors. (32+ / 0-)

        That's a widespread misconception; chiropractic is a controversial medical practice and there are a lot of people who are of the belief that it's little more than a pricey massage mixed with some good'ole faith healing.  The ones who get into really hardcore chiropractic, in the belief that both they can move people's spinal discs around (and that doing such a thing is actually a good idea) are really in a position to cause great harm.

        So, nope, no real smarts needed to become a chiropractor.

        "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

        by auron renouille on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:43:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey now (40+ / 0-)

          I've been treated by a chiropractor for about a year, and it has definitely helped with back pain that the "real doctors" couldn't treat without surgery or narcotics.

          Chiropractors need to complete a 4 year program after college, and pass licensing tests.  For the areas they focus on (especially the spine and posture correction) they can often help where allopathic approaches have failed.  Their services are covered by Medicare and many private insurance companies.

          Chiropractors are an adjunct, not a replacement, for traditional allopaths.  Saying a chiropractor is not a real doctor is like saying a psychologist is not a real doctor - neither is a traditional doctor, but each has a specific scope of practice than can help in particular areas.

          And every professional has its share of goofballs like this person.

          •  Hear, hear! (18+ / 0-)

            Lawdy I do get sick of smears against non-western healing practices on this site.

            I'll all for health care reform and all that, but western medicine does Not have all the answers!

            as I said earlier today:
            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

            by jan4insight on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:08:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My husband left a very successful surgery practice (28+ / 0-)

              to study acupuncture and integrative medicine (complementing western and alternatives).  He's now the medical director of an Integrative Center.  I really can't tell you how many people have come up to me, or us, or one of our kids and said that my husband healed them when many other doctors didn't or couldn't.  Most took pills upon pills for many years until seeing him.  But mostly what I hear from them is that he LISTENS to them, and takes TIME with them.  

              He left a very lucrative surgical practice because he couldn't bear to do "drive by medicine" anymore.  He wanted to have time with his patients to really find out the source of their illness or pain.  It was a tough decision 15 years ago, but he couldn't be happier as a doctor now, and he's doing absolutely wonderful things for people.  His income was cut in half, but his happiness doubled.

              And as a side note....many of the physicians here thought he was crazy and full of hooey 15 years ago.  One said sarcastically that he was using "tree bark" to treat people.  Many of those physician skeptics are now patients of his!  The sweetest full circle.

              Western medicine has its place for sure, but so do alternative ways of treating people.  I'm sleeping with the proof.

            •  "Western healing" (13+ / 0-)

              Involves science.

              Chiropractoring can do what we all do, which is produce peer-reviewed rigorous scientific studies for its claims, or GTFO.

              Of course, if its claims hold up, it just becomes standard 'medicine'.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:55:40 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  YES (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sparhawk, ER Doc, chimpy, PatMcDowell, ebohlman

                The scientific method is what makes something science!  If you can't test it, or refuse to submit it to rigorous testing and peer review, then GTFO.

                Wish I could rep you a thousand times.  Seriously.  <3

                •  Do you have any idea (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  aitchdee

                  how difficult it is to get funding for studies of alternative healing?

                  Has nothing to do with refusal by the practice, but more to do with refusal by Big Pharma to give a nod to anything that might make inroads to their profit share.

                  That said, there have been many studies of alternative healing, which indicate promising uses for many of the modalities. They all conclude that larger studies would be useful, but once again the funding, the funding ...

                  And around and around it goes.

                  Since you apparently know not whereof you speak, perhaps you should GTFO and do some reading on the subject, Ms. Nightshade.

                  Oh btw, nightshade is a healing plant that has many uses when administered properly. It is, of course, poisonous if not do so. Two sides to every coin, eh...

                  http://www.uihealthcare.com/...

                  Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

                  by jan4insight on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:13:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Chiropracty is as scientific as creationism. (5+ / 0-)

                    If you believe in chiropractics, the you know what it's like to be of those people who believe in creationism, the earth being 6,000 years old, that vaccines cause autism, and the there is no anthropogenic global warming.

                    You have no standing to laugh at Mark Rubio.

                    The evidence against chiropracty is as clear as the evidence against the young earth.

                    It's that simple.

                    Science is science. You can't pick and choose.

                  •  Chiropractic "clinics" can be quite lucrative. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Silvia Nightshade, PatMcDowell

                    There is absolutely no reason--none--that they could not self-fund a bunch of actual studies (by real scientists) and submit them for peer-review in actual scientific medical journals. It's unlikely to happen, I think, mainly because lots of them have drunk from the same vat of kool-aid and have a big chip on their shoulder about real science.

                    I won't argue that Big Pharma isn't a Big Roadblock in many areas, but the problem you note is supported at least as much by quacks fearful of exposing their quackery as any profit-hording Big Pharma executive is afraid of having holes punched in their drug-pushing racket(s).

                  •  Yes (3+ / 0-)

                    There is a whole division of NIH devoted to it.

                    And of course there are schools of chiropractic--you'd think that sometime in the past 100 years or so one of them might have been able to kick out a peer-reviewed report on the efficacy of chiropractic treatment.

                    And, contrary to your claim, there are precious few rigorous studies of "alternative healing" that indicate that any of them work--and lots of studies showing that they don't.

                    "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

                    by Old Left Good Left on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:51:16 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Since I need to do research (0+ / 0-)

                    about how nobody can get funding for alternative therapy studies, can you give me a place to start?  Even terms to Google would help.  I have no problem reading up on the subject, but I'm having trouble finding little more than blog posts and opinion pieces from people.

                    Secondly, I am more than well aware of what nightshade is.  Part of the reason I chose my username is because we had nightshade spring up wild by my house as a teenager.  I used to sit outside at night on the deck next to the plant (which coiled up and around the lattice at the end of the deck) and write in a notebook.  It was very calming for me because I lived in a rural area so it was nice and quiet.  Nightshade is a very interesting plant indeed, and the flowers are quite gorgeous.  

                  •  What the hell is a 'modality' (0+ / 0-)

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:40:30 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  BS (0+ / 0-)

                    Ever heard of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM)? It's the one division of the NIH that actually has leftover grant money at the end of each year. They've funded studies of "treatments" that have even less scientific basis than chiropractic.

                    No, the problem isn't lack of funds, it's unwillingness to submit one's practices to systematic investigation.

                    In a dog-eat-dog world, rabies is an advantage in the short term.

                    by ebohlman on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 05:27:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Chiropractic is as "Western" as it gets (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              aitchdee

              Or at least Midwestern, since it was invented in Davenport, Iowa.

              "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

              by Old Left Good Left on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:48:04 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Chiropractic is the definition of Western. (0+ / 0-)

              Wikipedia will explain the origins, neither eastern nor ancient. It is all about the money.

          •  Not that there's anything wrong w/ pricey massages (5+ / 0-)

            Chiropractors just aren't medical doctors. There's no scientific method used to relate complaints, causes and cures. There's no scientific method used to evaluate procedures for efficacy, or compare them to each other.

            But, it still seems to help. People touching each other with helpful intentions does seem to improve outlook and health. Extended sessions, longer than those allowed by many proper medical practices, might encourage the patient to open up verbally as well.

            Sports coaches, arts & craft instructors, bartenders and massage therapists all help others improve their health in different and important ways. Doing these things well with strangers takes some training and practice, but that doesn't mean they're doctors.

            Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

            by chimpy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:57:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  My experience with chiropractors (8+ / 0-)

            (in 6 visits to 3 separate practitioners) was that they are frauds practicing overpriced mumbo jumbo. A good massage by a trained person is more effective than all the "adjustments" perpetrated by these fools disguising themselves as some form of medical expert. One woman chiropractor, for instance, charged me $50 for a "lower spinal adjustment" when all she did was to hold a small device in her hand and click it against my lower back twice, after which she told me to go home and rest my back. Thanks for nothing! They are the medical profession's equivalent of a placebo. If they didn't have an active lobby in Congress they would have been banned years ago.

            •  One part of that advice was useful (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              chimpy, ebohlman

              the part about resting. Of course it doesn't require chiropractic to come up with that...scientific medicine would indicate the same, but the trouble is our society does not respect rest--anyone not working is considered to be malingering.

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:30:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I worked for a chiropractor (5+ / 0-)

              for about a year, years ago. Front desk and accounting. For years after I prayed that he would be audited, but that my name would not come up, because a fair portion of his billing practices were fraud.

              He also had me read a bunch of literature, basically indoctrination stuff on how great chiropractic is. And stuff about 'building the business'. It felt a lot like reading Amway materials.

              I've met a couple of chiropractors who are nice individuals, but on the whole, the profession is a bit squicky.

              "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Albus Dumbledore ~~~~~~~~~ http://slugcrossings.blogspot.com/

              by Lainie on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:45:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit. (14+ / 0-)

          Chiropractors know more about the whole body than M.D.s. These days, a lot of MDs are just pill pushers, focusing on illness.  Chiropractors can work with you to maintain your wellness.

          •  Not the one in this instant case, however! (4+ / 0-)

            Aldus Shrugged : The Antidote to Ayn Rand. Tear Ayn, the GOP, and Fox News new orifices; laugh and enjoy. @floydbluealdus1

            by Floyd Blue on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 04:28:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who knows? (0+ / 0-)

              Just because she has no clue about accounting doesn't mean she's just as good a chiropractor as any. It's an ideological thing...to the extent that it exists outside the scientific mainstream, it inhabits a place where anti-liberal ideology often thrives.

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:33:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  If they're not an MD, than the closest they are to (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Robobagpiper, tommymet, chimpy

            'doctors' is if they're like me, and have a PhD or maybe a JD or some other type of doctorate.  If they want to be doctors, get the MD, and then keep on being a chiropractor.

            But it's good that they focus on primary care, rather than tertiary.  More of the US medical system needs to shift focus to prevention.

          •  I would be careful with that belief. (18+ / 0-)
            Chiropractors know more about the whole body than M.D.s.
            It's illogical and, in my opinion, dangerous.
          •  Chiropractors know how to prey on people (6+ / 0-)

            in pain and scam individuals and insurance companies out of a lot of money. That's about all they know, as a class.

            Individual chiropractors may vary, but in ways that are at best tangentially related to their primary "profession."

            •  Chiropractors are fine so long as you don't listen (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              carrps, beemerr, aitchdee

              to the hokum.

              They are one hell of a lot cheaper than doctors who will make you sit around in their lobby, look at you for a couple of minutes, write a prescription, then send you on your way.

              Our track and cross-country running daughter has been well-served by a local chiro for a few minor running injuries.

              OTOH, we have friends who fell into what I consider the cult side of chiropractic -- regular adjustments, getting the fillings drilled out of their teeth, etc,etc, etc.

              Scary stuff.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:06:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Massage therapy would probably be better (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mmacdDE, chimpy, aitchdee

                still--what people with pain complaints often need is relaxation, being able to rest whatever is hurting so it can heal itself. Americans are too quick to seek medical interventions--too many MD's who specialize in treating pain over treat, both because it's lucrative and their patients demand it.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:39:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's a big part of it, along with some helpful (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  chimpy, aitchdee

                  nutritional advice, etc.

                  And we can't forget the placebo effect -- going to somebody who plays doctor does reassure you that you are "doing something about it", and that can actually promote healing.

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:45:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  You just hit the nail on the head: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sunbro, CoolOnion

            focusing on illness.

            And many a brownie point to you.

            Medical science is a wonderful thing, and I can barely imagine the wonderfulness that would ensue if a rational health care system were to apply all of that wonderful knowledge and related to tools to keeping us well instead of looking for and dealing with sickness.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:02:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Both traditional medicine and alternative medicine (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rhauenstein, CoolOnion, aitchdee

              have their place.

              For most purposes, alternative medicine is better, because it focuses on prevention rather than cure, relies on natural methods rather than pharmaceuticals, and is a holistic approach rather than "dividing the body into parts" and dealing with the body in parts.  Also, alternative medicine better recognizes the mind-body connection.

              But Dr. Andrew Weil is correct.  Both approaches are useful, depending upon the circumstances.  And both approaches have their myths.  One must sort out the truth in each approach versus the B.S. in each approach.

              -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

              by sunbro on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:13:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                David Fetter

                There is so much wrong with that comment I don't even know where to begin.

                "For most purposes alternative medicine is better..."

                Alternative medicine didn't cure my mother's cancer.  Nor did it prevent it.

                •  Cancer, where something must be cut out (0+ / 0-)

                  through invasive surgery, is one of the areas that Dr. Weil has opined that traditional medicine is necessary.

                  It sounds has though you believe that no branches of alternative medicine, in any situation, have any useful purpose.  If that is your stance, I very much disagree with it.

                  Jack LaLanne, lived a healthy life, and enjoyed vibrant health almost to his dying day at age 96 because of exercise and nutrition.  He was a fierce critic against turning to drugs as a solution to ills, as traditional medicine seems too happy to do.

                  I will choose natural, preventive medicine, exercise, and nutrition, and I will live better because of it.

                  -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                  by sunbro on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:56:35 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Just because (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sunbro, David Fetter

                    something is "natural" doesn't make it inherently better for you.  Plenty of natural things kill people every year.  Plenty of unnatural things, like radiation a chemotherapy (a whole gaggle of chemicals in that one!) heal people every day.  Which is not to say that all natural things are crap, either.  Everything needs to be valued on its own merits.  Dismissing the entirely of "traditional" medicine or "Western" medicine (or whatever stupid name someone wants to give it; it's just medicine based in SCIENCE) is no different than your accusation that I'm dismissing all alternative therapies.  I'm not.  I'm only dismissing those THAT KILL PEOPLE.  No amount of vitamins cures HIV/AIDS.  No amount of prayer cures cancer.

                    There are also plenty of drugs that the big, horrible pharmaceutical companies produce that help people live and live well.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending that industry, because they focus on a new type of birth control rather than curing life threatening illnesses because there's more money in "lifestyle" drugs than in medicines that actually help people.  But to act like "traditional" medicine has brought us nothing of value is blatant ignorance in the face of facts.

                    Alternative medicine cannot claim to be the only branch of medicine that advocates prevention through wellness, including eating right and exercising.  And if you truly think so you are, again, willfully ignorant or just flat-out lying.

                    •  No, I'm merely reacting to doctors and drug (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      acnetj, aitchdee

                      companies who try to forward the position that alternative medicine is all quackery, when clearly, most alternative medicine is not.  Alternative medicine CAN BE, however, a bit of a "threat" to a drug company's bottom line, just as green energy and electric cars can be, at times, a "threat" to an oil company's bottom line.

                      -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                      by sunbro on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:50:31 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Cancer (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wa ma, sunbro

                  Are you implying that all cancer is cured by traditional medicine?

              •  The focus on "prevention" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ebohlman

                means they are treating people who aren't actually sick.

                Since wellness is the normal state, most "alternative"
                 medicine patients don't get unwell.

                And the quacks claim that they kept them well--when of course doing nothing would have kept the patients well.

                "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

                by Old Left Good Left on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:56:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh come on, (0+ / 0-)

                  where do you get this "most alternative medicine patients don't get unwell" crap from?  Cite something of any significance like a study before I'm buying that.

                  And sure, traditional medicine doesn't focus on prevention, like nutrition and exercise AT ALL.  Which is why nobody ever talks about it.  Ever.  I mean, I can't Google the American Medical Association and find any information about preventative measures including eating right and staying active, can I?

                  •  You don't seem to understand my comment at all (0+ / 0-)

                    First of all, I'm on your side in this one...you might want to check my other comments.

                    Assume that, on average, a person has a 5% chance of becoming sick (i.e., "unwell") in a year.

                    That person goes to an alternative practitioner who gives them some nostrum and claims that it is preventative care.

                    Whether or not the treatment was effective, the person is not going to get sick (i.e. "unwell") because most people do not get sick.

                    The alternative practioner then claims that the continued wellness is a result of the treatment, when it was the likely outcome in any event.

                    "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

                    by Old Left Good Left on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:11:50 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Prevention=Public Health (0+ / 0-)

              We know what prevents disease: clean air, clean water, uncontaminated soil (hard to say "clean dirt"!), exercise, fresh vegetables, 8-hour day, 5 day week, etc. The 24/7 lifestyle and the anxiety/bad food/contaminated environment that goes with it is killing us.

              We don't need "alternative" medicine--we need protection/escape from the physical and psychological insults of our modern world.

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:08:13 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Different things work for different people. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mmacdDE, aitchdee
          •  Get the best of both worlds use (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nailbanger

            an osteopath (DO). My doctor can treat all the normal things and she does manipulation.  

          •  Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

            Plain and simple.

            "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

            by Old Left Good Left on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:52:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I used to think the same thing until (9+ / 0-)

          I woke up in severe pain, unable to turn my head or raise my arm. I called a friend for a recommendation, since a massage didn't help. He got me out of pain. My husband maintains that it's all a bunch of voodoo nonsense, but he restored my range of motion and solved the pain.

          One of my dearest friends was helped, at least in the short term (chiro won't fix arthritis in the back, but it can help with th pain and range of motion).

          I'm a skeptic and I can't poo-poo it.

          "An injury to one is an injury to all"

          by jhb90277 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 11:40:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  "controversial medical practice"?? Are you stuck (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Creosote, PhilW, sethtriggs

          in the 1970s?  EVERY insurance program I've had or been partnered into has covered chiro since the mid-90s.  Why would any for-profit (only!) bloodsucking insurance co pay for chiro if they could weasel out of it?

          What are you talking about?

          The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

          by JVolvo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 11:50:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They've been bullied into it ... (8+ / 0-)

            by customers and the credulous media. The insurance companies then just raise the rates for all of us, so we all have to pay for it, even if some of us believe (because it's true) that chiropractic is a possibly-dangerous pseudoscience that provides negligible long-term benefits.

            •  What? Blue Cross, Wellpoint, Aetna et al have (0+ / 0-)

              been "bullied into" covering chiro?  The cold-hearted bastards who will happily deny treatments and let people die to preserve their profit margins have been "bullied into" it?

              What are you smoking?

              The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

              by JVolvo on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 04:44:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'm talking about reality. (0+ / 0-)

            Just because insurance covers chiropractic doesn't mean it's a an effective treatment or cure for anything - if anything, I thought progressives' mindset was that we wanted insurance to get out of endorsing treatments.  I don't trust American insurance companies to tell patients when a treatment isn't "medically necessary," and I don't trust them anymore if they're instead endorsing a procedure.

            "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

            by auron renouille on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:11:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Insurers make more money by expanding (0+ / 0-)

            the pool of potential business partners (service providers) that victims of the insurance company fraudsters (patients) can go to, since they can justify inflated premiums for garbage "services" that some will never use and those that do will only ever make minimal (relatively) claims for.

            Covering chiropractic "services" is basically a nearly risk-free margin creator for insurance policies that do it.

        •  As someone (9+ / 0-)

          who has had intermittent, acute back pain who has been treated by a chiro, I disagree.

          The chiros I have consulted in various cities have been able literally to switch off pain that had been crippling me for days. Yes, some massage is involved because muscles that are tight as violin strings should not be stretched; ask any sportsperson why they warm up, for example.

          But until those stretches can be applied, until you feel the little click of the joints relocating and the instant end to the pain, your claims mean nothing.

          The last chiro I saw about 8 years ago also gave me a stretching programme to use whenever my back feels "unstable", until you've had one it means nothing, once you experience it, its clear as day. The stretches and spinal rotations are not trivial, but they are based on the chiro's analysis of the problem, and they work better than 90% of the time. If I fail to act soon enough and my back goes "out", they help, but only another reset actually removes the pain.

          Until inauguration day The USA is in the greatest danger it has ever experienced.

          by Deep Dark on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:48:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sports Therapy (0+ / 0-)

            Yes, a good sports therapist would also be able to fix your aches and pains as well - without any "chiropractic" mumbo jumbo.  Nobody denies that a good massage feels good but beyond simple back pain, chiropractic care has never, ever, been proven to be anything better than a good massage.

            The biggest problem rational people have with Chiropractic care is that a lot of practitioners make wild claims that Chiropractic will cure asthma, AIDS, viral infections, etc.  None of those claims are even close to being true.  Sure, a good massage might make someone feel better but beyond that Chiropractic is quackery.

            You may not like that an M.D. prescribes drugs and surgery to fix a back problem but that's what modern science has proven works.

            [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

            by rabel on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:47:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  That's a bit harsh (9+ / 0-)

          As with any profession, I'm sure there are smart, good, honest chiropractors out there as well as stupid, dangerous ones.

          I don't think I would ever visit one unless I had chronic back pain that could not be relieved by an M.D.

          But as with most nontraditional practices, you are guaranteed to come across true believers who have anecdote after anecdote of how their chiropractors (or their spouse's or friend's) did wonders.  Belief appears to be a strong factor.

          Where I live, I have heard advertisements from a chiropractor suggesting he can help alleviate asthma.  

          In my opinion (disclaimer -- I come from the perspective of someone trained and working as a scientist but not health science), if you have back or joint pain and you find relief from going to a chiropractor, great.  I'm certain it's a relief and a help to you.

          But if your chiropractor advertises that he or she can treat asthma or other non-skeletal ailments by "spinal manipulation" (or whatever jargon term they use these days), I would listen carefully for the sound of ducks.

        •  Well, chriopraxy began as a Wellville-worthy (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bwintx, sethtriggs, dinotrac, carrps, IreGyre

          bag of woo about all human illnesses and maladies deriving from misalignment of the spine.

          But because the thing took off, a lot of people who are honest to god physical therapists practice under the term, because the public believes it's real medicine. From what I understand, they now dominate the field, and real doctors actually take "chiropractors" seriously. The woo folks are still out there, though.

          20 years ago, your objection would be more valid. Less so today.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:30:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then they need to start policing themselves ... (6+ / 0-)

            instead of suing critics for libel.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            Thankfully, Singh won and the UK is considering modifying its libel laws in response to this case.

          •  I hope that (0+ / 0-)

            legitimate physical therapists (which is based in science) don't want to associate themselves with chiropractic.  They should just be physical therapists, and if they want to work with a doctor to bolster their name they need to link up with orthopedist or similar, not a chiropractor.

            •  Yeah, I've never seen this before either. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Silvia Nightshade

              Of course, I've never seen a mountain lion, so that doesn't mean they don't exist.  But I've been in PT more times than I can count and most of them wouldn't touch a chiropractic office with a barge pole.  But I've got a pretty serious spinal condition (scoliosis - and mine progressed even after adulthood) so I have rarely been sent to a small-town office, these are usually folks with larger practices.

              If anything, the PT's that I've seen expressed a lot of fear and concern that their patients might accidentally do themselves harm with some of these things.

              "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

              by auron renouille on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:16:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  My older brother (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                auron renouille

                has been to his fair share of physical therapists after patella relocation surgery on both knees (and considering a career in the field as well).  Most practices I'm familiar with, even in the small towns where I have lived, are usually a handful of PTs who run a practice together, not unlike a group of MDs who will run a family-style general practice together.

                •  A little off-topic, but, wow, my sympathy for him (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Silvia Nightshade

                  I have a number of disabilities, including an above-the-knee amputation as an infant, and I had the remaining kneecap removed in high school because of serious issues with it not staying in place - when that damn thing popped out of place, it was the worst and scariest pain I'd ever been in, even worse than many of my spinal surgeries.

                  I remember one of the times that it popped out - we were on a road trip from Ohio to my grandmother in Florida; we stopped in Northern Kentucky at a McDonalds or something for a quick breakfast (we were in a hurry, but I don't recall why) and I slipped on the floor probably due to the wrist crutches I had to walk with and knocked the damn thing out of its groove - I was in so much pain and then, even after I popped it back into place I vividly recall sitting in the car shaking for a good two hours, at least until the Tennessee border.  Looking back I was probably literally in shock as per the medical definition of shock, but because the injury ceased once the kneecap was back in place, I didn't put the pieces together and certainly didn't seek emergency medical assistance, although my orthopedic surgeon was kind of horrified by the thought that I was able to fix that without surgery.

                  Anyhow, because walking for me was extremely difficult due to the other disabilities, the kneecap issues were the last straw - we just packed it in and I had the kneecap removed.  I use a manual wheelchair today and now I can outlast most of my non-disabled friends in terms of stamina (and I'm handy to have around if you ever need to move furniture due to upper body strength).  So this is something I tell many of the friends and colleagues facing medical limitations - for many people, a wheelchair is liberating.  It certainly was for me.  I went from being unable to travel at all without family due to not being able to walk long distances to now being able to travel both with family and later solo in Japan and the Pacific islands, which was an amazing experience.

                  So, yeah, my sympathies for him, I hope he was able to get that resolved in a positive fashion.  What horrible pain :(.

                  "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

                  by auron renouille on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:46:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I hear you. (0+ / 0-)

                    The reason he had the surgeries is that my family has a genetic deformity in the end of the femur.  The bone is not concave at the end like it should be to hold the kneecap properly.  It's flat, so the kneecap can very easily slide around.  The correct involved cutting the patellar tendon and moving it so the kneecap doesn't move as freely.  He had both surgeries almost ten years apart, but as an athlete through college (collegiate baseball pitcher and 7'0" tall) he was more prone to the injury than me, who is an artsy nerdy techy geek who can't catch a ball to save her life.  My younger brother also has the same issue and was an athlete as well (and also 7'0") but he declined to get the surgeries and just quit playing sports.  He wasn't as into it as my older brother.

                    We all get it from our mom, along with Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, but the mildest type.  That's a weird one, because you sometimes don't know which symptoms you have until it's too late.  My brothers had their wisdom teeth out without issue.  Mine caused horrific pain and swelling, all the way down past my lungs, which made it hard to breathe/eat for two months.  So even though we all have the same genetic deficiency, it manifests differently between the four of us.  Wish I could just get collagen injections from a plastic surgeon, but I suppose it doesn't work that way.  

                    Also, it's interesting that you note a wheelchair as liberating.  After his first knee surgery, my brother said the same thing.  He was trying to use crutches with an immobilizer and had a terrible time getting around (plus people just don't get out of your way on crutches like they do when you're in a wheelchair).  When he lobbied for a wheelchair from the doctor, he was so much happier and had a whole new appreciation for wheelchair access.

        •  THIS (7+ / 0-)

          They aren't real doctors!  Chiropractic is one of the highest orders of bullshit in the modern world today and the real shame is that the public and even chiropractors themselves have been convinced otherwise.  I suggest everyone read up on the history of chiropractic, as well as studies that compare the benefits of chiropractic to medical massage, for example.  Barely any difference.

          That, and a lot of chiropractors try to read films like they're full-on radiologists.  Sorry, but no.  And no, the spine doesn't get out of alignment as often as they say, or the supposed "subluxations" they point to on CR films are utter bullshit.  They don't know what they're looking at.

          Lastly, if you let a chiropractor fuck with your neck, understand that you are risking your life.  If they twist too much, the tips of your vertabrae can catch your jugular and rip it apart.  People have DIED on the table from chiropractors.  And don't give me the crap about "that was one guy who didn't know what he was doing."  If ANY of them knew what they were doing, they would never jerk anyone's head in a motion that risks tearing such a vital pathway in the circulatory system.

          Everyone can HR me as much as they want.  I will never, never stop extolling the truth about what chiropractic really is.  Because it KILLS PEOPLE.  I don't have a problem with alternative medicine until it starts killing people.  The same as how I fight against people who try to pray cancer away, I will fight this.

        •  Call it what you want... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aitchdee

          I'll take the results...

          I hobble into my chiropractors office stooped over in pain barely able to stand...

          15 minutes later I walk out upright without pain...

          It sure beats being out of work for a month, eating pills that do nothing for the pain, and going to therapy appointments 3 times a week for a month...

          Back on topic: Any business owner in danger of making more than $250K, that would attempt to limit their income potential in an attempt to stay in the "Under $250K Tax Bracket," is probably making way more money than their stupidity should allow. IMHO

          "Do you realize the responsibility I carry? I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House." ~John F. Kennedy~

          by Oldestsonofasailor on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:44:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Chiropractors (0+ / 0-)

          Chiropractors are not MDs but chiropractic treatment is not quackery.  Where do you come up with your ideas?

        •  Chiropractic is a pseudo-science and (0+ / 0-)

          As you indicated can be dangerous. Never allow a Chiropracter to adjust your neck, people have died and had devastating strokes. Check out www.whatstheharm.com.

      •  read the back of matchbook covers lately? (24+ / 0-)
        How did she become a Chiropractor?
        um, no, it isn't. and no, her accountant has probably attempted, many times, to explain this relatively simple concept to her, with obviously no success to date.
        second its only a tax on profits, third she is really dumb and has an even dumber accountant.
        the marginal tax rates for individuals are used to compute the tax liability on your taxable income, not to be confused with your gross income, which appears in box 1 of your federal form w-2. if you're a small business owner (as this lady and her husband are), you probably file a sch. C. sch. C is used to compute your net income from your business, which is then used to compute your taxable income. taxable income is:

        gross income
        minus adjs. to gross income
        minus itemized deductions
        minus deductions for personal exemptions
        ------------------------------------------------

        equals taxable income
        =========

        again, in defense of her accountant, he/she has probably explained this to her several times, and it just hasn't broken through. it hasn't broken through, because the GOP, rush limbaugh and FOX have diligently worked to ensure their respective audiences don't understand. unfortunately, both the MSM and sites like daily kos have done little to educate such as our nice lady chiropracter, themselves making little effort to distinguish between gross income and taxable income.

        this very post is guilty of failure to educate, making no distinction between Gross Income, and Taxable Income. the two are not the same, and are not interchangeable.

        •  It hasn't broken through (11+ / 0-)

          Because she believes that disease is caused by poor energy flow in the body.

          In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

          by boriscleto on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:05:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tofumagoo, sethtriggs, Cali Scribe

          I feel the author did a good job of explaining it in the most basic way.
          You are right, but you have complicated it and this is probably how people have explained it to her prior....and her eyes glazed over.

        •  I've been saying exactly that for a year. (23+ / 0-)

          If someone grosses $250,000 in their business and that's also their taxable income, they have a bigger problem than a few percentage points of increase in taxes. They don't understand the difference between gross and taxable income. I'm guessing they're the same people who sign up for big mortgages because the interest is tax deductible. I remember trying to explain that it only means that's money they won't pay tax on, and the person didn't believe me. It's not a tax credit fer-gawds-sake.

          If she's so worried about going over by a few thousand, maybe she could pay her employees a bonus for the year on profits. Problem solved. She wouldn't have made the money without support.

          •  The real blame goes to the NY Times (8+ / 0-)

            Notice how the article did not, in any way, correct the chiropractor's mistaken impression.  It could have clearly stated

            "Like Ms. Chiropractor, many people incorrectly believe that it could benefit a taxpayer to earn slightly under $250K, and that it could be very costly to make just one dollar more.  In fact, with an income of $250,001, extra tax would be owed only on the $1, and would amount to just four cents."

            But since the Times writes about this woman's concerns and doesn't say that they are invalid, it is implicitly saying that they are valid.

        •  This is why I think (0+ / 0-)

          The entire tax structure needs to be revamped.

          All income the same, one set deduction for everybody, a nice big one. Minimal deductions in addition to that. I'd give a deduction for alimony/child support payments in excess of a certain percentage of income, and for extraordinary medical expenses in excess of a certain percentage of income. That's it.

          If the standard deduction is 15k per person, 7 k per child under 26, then a family of 4 could have 44k of income before any tax was due.

          It's easy to understand. You make 45k, you subtract 44 and pay tax on what's left.

          I'd have a millionaires surtax. You make 5 mil (from all sources, remember), you subtract your deduction, pay 20% (picked out of thin air, not sure what the rate would need to be) on the first mil. The rest you pay 40% on.

          So for our imaginary family of 4 making 5 mil, they'd subtract 44k off the top, pay 200,000 on the first mil of taxable income, and pay 1,582,400 on the remaining 3,956,000, leaving them with a measly 3,217,600 to live on. (Unless I screwed up the math, which is possible).

          Poor babies...

          •  That's crazy (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Theodore J Pickle, RAST, acnetj

            Just because some people are too stupid to understand it doesn't mean that a graduated income tax is a bad idea.  It is good that we tax income not people.  We tax income below a certain level at a particular rate. For everyone.  Everyone is treated the same.  It is the income that is treated differently.  Even a billionare's first $250K is taxed at the lower rates.  That is fair.  Only the higher income is taxed at the higher rate.  That is fair.  It doesn't single anyone out for special treatment.

      •  nss (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        yaque

        and i surely wouldn't want kristina manipulating my spine

        "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

        by Sybil Liberty on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:13:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Rebutted in two words: Allan Harper! (0+ / 0-)
      •  The Chiropractor needs an adjustment. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida, gneissgirl, wa ma

        But not a spinal adjustment.
        Maybe an attitude adjustment.
        Maybe an adjustment to her TV (turn the channel away  from Fox News)

    •  You can't fix stupid, true. But you can fix (33+ / 0-)

      misinformed.  And unfortunately, our TradMedia does not seem to see that as their mission.  How many opportunities have they had to spell out how this increase works?  The fact that so many millions of people still don't understand this - including people who actually would be affected by it - just shows that they are not doing their job.  It's fucking pathetic.

      •  I actually saw Joe Scar (13+ / 0-)

        start babbling like a weirdo when somebody on MJ started to explain it. Basically he drowned him out and then cut him off.

      •  You can't fix misinformed, either. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pluto, avsp, Alice in Florida, rlharry

        You can't fix stupid or misinformed. That is why the Republican Party is in such trouble right now.

      •  We need to make people understand this (19+ / 0-)

        Many, many people make the mistaken assumption that the top marginal rate is the rate that now applies to total income.  Actually, as pointed out above, the effective rate is considerably less.

        If more people understood this simple point, I think support for progressive taxation would increase dramatically.  One of the best things progressives could to would be to institute a full-throttle education campaign on this.  Let's get some of the folks who did Obama's ads working on some good TV spots to make this point.  

        •  Exactly! (0+ / 0-)

          It is OUR job to inform on this.  The media will not do this, because such a mundane, technocratic increase in the top marginal tax rate -- and it's accompanying non-earth-shaking increase in tax revenue -- does not sell as interesting news, otherwise.

          Sure, progressive taxation is taught in your basic high school economics class, but dwelling on people's "stupidity" is as pointless as the gun shop guy with the marquis announcing how "stupid" people are for voting for Obama.

        •  I just shake my head and sigh (0+ / 0-)

          when I read things like this.

          this is basic shit... how is it that so many people don't understand basic shit?

          •  Half of all people (0+ / 0-)

            are dumber than the median. *

            If you plot intelligence as a standard distribution graph, FOX viewers represent the left-hand side, from the zero bound to the edge of the first standard deviation.

            * payed attention in math class

            ad astra per alia porci

            by harrije on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:18:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Because they don't do their taxes by hand (0+ / 0-)

            When you had to do the calculations, it was easier. You could see where the cutoffs were. You could see if you had x more in deductions, you'd save y, if you made x you paid y, you knew what the standard deduction was, etc.

            Now you just take your paperwork to the accountant, or tax service, or you plug numbers into a program.

            Your taxes go up, your taxes go down, you get back more or less, or you have to pay, and you really don't know why.

            In some ways it's good, but its also very frustrating and leads to lots of misunderstanding of how the rates work,

        •  Correspondingly... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Minnesota Deb, ebohlman, acnetj

          The so-called "middle-class tax cut" is automatically also a tax cut for higher-income people. Same reasoning.

        •  There are so many places promoting (0+ / 0-)

          ... the misunderstanding, it's going to take a concerted effort to fix it. Just take a look at this pre-election post on Mint.com (which is a formerly-independent cloud-based money management tool, now owned by Intuit):

          http://www.mint.com/...

        •  She clearly doesn't understand how (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Patate

          ...the tax system works.

          If she "carefully" manages her income to keep it at or below $250k of taxable income in 2013, she will have a take home of: $190,593.  If she doesn't throttle her business, and instead lets her business bring her a taxable income of $260k, her take home pay will be $197,293. So, she's going to intentionally hurt her business to keep herself from taking home an extra $7k/yr, just because she doesn't want to pay slightly more tax on that extra $10k?

          Even more amusing: the 33% tax bracket starts at $217k. So, she's already paying 33% on the top $32,550 of her income.

          Doubly amusing is the fact that if her business is taking in $250k of revenues, that's not the amount that's taxable. The taxable amount is what's left after all deductions and credits are taken. So, she's going to mismanage her business, lose customers, and take home less money all because she's blazingly ignorant about how taxes work.

          I found the original story about this woman on Yahoo Finance (where I can't comment, sadly). If I could have commented there, I would have added:

          I also love all the people in the comments who support this woman in her quest to lose money and business out of her ignorance of how taxes work. It's hilarious that they call others idiots, imbeciles, etc. Thanks for providing the entertainment value, Yahoo!Finance.

          Note: If you don't understand how the numbers above work, please ask a friendly accountant to explain the concept of tax brackets to you. It's not that hard, and will save you a lot of future embarrassment.

        •  She confused between marginal and average (0+ / 0-)

          Even with a steeper rise in marginal rate, her average rate will only go up ever so slightly if she doesn't make much beyond the limit. There's not a scenario that she will take home with less money if she makes anything beyond the 250k limit versus making under 250k.

          I wonder if she had taken any courses in economics when she was in college or in chiropractic school.

          The increase in marginal tax rate could discourage people from making additional income (because the benefit of making the additional income just declined), assuming that they run their business (no overtime pay), and that doing so would require a lot more time and effort on their part to making that additional income. So if you are seeking a full time job and can negotiate your salary, there's absolutely no benefit to negotiate a salary under 250k if you can easily demand a pay above 250k.

      •  She is not stupid. She is not misinformed. She (6+ / 0-)

        is deranged.  

        She has Obama Derangement syndrome.

        All the King's horses and all the King's men cannot screw her brain back into her head.

      •  Experiment in willfully misinformed self-rule (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Minnesota Deb

        How can we even talk about Democracy among the a willfully misinformed public? We are all responsible for the governments we create, and even the ones we merely tolerate. We each have specialties and limitations in time and training, so we defer to each other's judgment on their areas of demonstrated expertise.

        But, something as elementary as how tax brackets work? Can you really run a business, file taxes, and not understand the concept of different levels of income being taxed at different rates? Or maybe ask someone who does, instead of pretending that the entertainment personalities on Fox News possess total wisdom and dispense it honestly?

        As often as I can, I make my travels take me past my favorite temple to Democracy. And every time I walk past it, I stop to read its inscription again. Sometimes casually, sometimes it takes the wind out of me and I have to stop and watch the centuries wind back and then forward again. I'll repeat it here:

        MDCCCLII
         •
        FOUNDED THROUGH THE MUNIFICENCE
        AND PUBLIC SPIRIT OF CITIZENS
        THE PUBLIC LIBRARY OF THE CITY OF BOSTON

        BUILT BY THE PEOPLE AND DEDICATED TO
        THE ADVANCEMENT OF LEARNING
         •
        A.D. MDCCCLXXXVIII
        THE COMMONWEALTH REQUIRES
        THE EDUCATION OF THE PEOPLE AS THE
        SAFEGUARD OF ORDER AND LIBERTY
        The people of Boston knew what they were building was not a luxury, or an entertaining diversion. They knew they needed to build, stock and staff an Armory against ignorance if the great experiment of self-government was to have a chance. So, they pooled their money and put it together. They knew they couldn't keep ignorant buffoons or sweet-tongued liars form diluting truth, but they knew they had to give truth the safe harbor that the free markets might not.

        Today, we have airwaves, cable channels and print media dominated by a few corporations. Honest stories struggle for column inches. Libraries and public broadcasting struggle for funding. We have to decide what matters, and support it like we mean it.

        Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

        by chimpy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:29:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, it's really hard to fix (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rlharry

        "misinformed." People who are misinformed are actually that way by choice--they only want to hear what agrees with their pre-formed opinions. If the "traditional media" made it clear, that doesn't mean she'd listen--she'd stick to media she trusts.

        On top of which, the misunderstanding of marginal tax rates is nothing new--people misunderstood that back in the days of real journalism. For most people, progressive tax rates are a mystery--even if they do their own taxes, all they do is look up their income on the tax table and write down the amount of tax they see there. They might as well be looking at a magic 8-ball for all that they understand where the figure comes from.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:14:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If they choose to be misinformed, then I call 'em (0+ / 0-)

          stupid.  If they are misinformed because they are given wrong or incomplete information, that's a different thing.  Presenting them with the actual facts may well make a difference.  But if no one even bothers to lay out the facts (or if they intentionally omit or distort them), then it's hard to blame people for not knowing.

        •  Those convoluted forms don't help much either. (0+ / 0-)
    •  Owww! The stupid! It burns!! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      avsp, pinklizzy

      The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, And wretches hang, that jurymen may dine.

      by magnetics on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:10:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You may not be (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      avsp, desert rain, yaque, chimpy

      able to fix stupid but you can fix ignorance, so long as it isn't willful.  In this case, I think it's ignorance prompted and promoted by those that benefit profoundly from just this kind of ignorance - Republicans.

      Just as watching Faux News literally makes you dumber, Republicans and the uber-wealthy that they carry the water for want voters to have these misconceptions.  It serves their interest.

      I hope I hear some right-winger making a similar claim, I intend to utterly shame and ridicule them as publicly as possible for their stupidity about how the tax code works.

      Arrrr, the laws of science be a harsh mistress. -Bender B. Rodriguez

      by democracy inaction on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 04:54:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And did a 46% top corporate tax rate stop Romney (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mmacdDE, rlharry, wa ma

      from starting up Bain Capital in 1984?  No.  The whole "higher tax rate = job killer" argument is utterly baseless (unless you are a math-challenged and common sense-challenged GOP doofus, as this story suggests).  And they just keep doubling down on their own ignorance!

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