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View Diary: Finding a progressive voice in the most recent Israel-Palestine rumble (64 comments)

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  •   10 million people (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JoanMar, poco, historys mysteries, Smoh

    in Israel and Palestine (or Palestinian Territories, depending on your source).

    I think, even on the face of it, that that's a sufficient number of human souls to bother our little heads about.  Even if it weren't for the nukes and the shipping lanes and the oil reserves and an absolutely pivotal geopolitical role.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:48:39 PM PST

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    •  And the fact that the whole thing (7+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp, JoanMar, poco, 4democracy, SCFrog, corvo, Smoh

      is paid for with US taxpayer dollars.

      •  Hardly (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lgmcp, LilithGardener, puzzled

        Irrespective of recent ridiculous claims to the contrary, US foreign aid to Israel for defense is about $3 billion out of a total defense budget of about $15 billion.  That would be 20%. Twenty percent too much if you ask me, but it is a long ways from the whole thing being paid for with US dollars.

        •  True as regards how big a share (0+ / 0-)

          the US contributes towards Israel's overall defense expenditure.  

          If on the other hand you look at the amounts Israel receives from the US, in relation to other recipients of US foreign aid both economic and military ... Israel gets more absolute dollars for military assistance than any country except Afghanistan where we have a current active conflict.

          The table of recipients at http://en.wikipedia.org/... allows one to sort by dollars towards military aid, towards economic aid, towards combined aid, and towards all those categories per capita.  It's quite interesting.  By any measure, Israel is a top priority for this country's foreign expenditure.

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:49:15 PM PST

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          •  Some of the things which give value to Israel are (0+ / 0-)

            not in direct budgeting. Work between the militaries and the intelligence divisions, such as CIA communications stuff which has been mentioned in press accounts of the prep for the currently ongoing enterprise.

    •  Which would put it 97th in population. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Farugia

      Beneath countries like:

      Pakistan (181M)
      Nigeria (167M)
      Ethiopia (84M)
      Democratic Republic of Congo (70M)
      Tanzania (43M)
      Uganda (34M)
      Iraq (33M)
      Sudan (31M)
      Afghanistan (26M)
      Syria (21M)
      Angola (21M)
      Zimbabwe (13M)
      Rwanda (11M)
      Haiti (10M)
      Somalia (10M)

      The headlines from all these countries combined wouldn't add up to the attention paid to Israel/Palestine.  Anyone who can tell you more about Israel/Palestine than any one of those other countries has their priorities fucked up.

      "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

      by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:00:54 PM PST

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      •  I don't buy into that line of reasoning (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Celtic Merlin

        For, if I did, I might ignore the needs of people in a domestic State - which happens to have great needs, yet a lower population.

        •  There isn't a single one of the listed countries (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Farugia

          whose problems aren't far worse than those in Israel/Palestine, and far more broadly experienced.  But how often do we see diaries even here, among people who generally give a shit about things, about Ethiopia or the Democratic Republic of Congo, let alone in the media?  Israel/Palestine gets attention because the place has religious significance, and I'm goddam tired of tribal myths dictating 21st century policies.

          "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

          by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:26:48 PM PST

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          •  I disagree with this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Smoh

            But only partially. It is true that there is a huge segment of the American population that only pays attention because of the religious significance. However, there are a growing number of people like me who pay attention because of the lopsided power dynamics going on between Israel and Palestine. I'm an atheist. I don't give a crap about the religious significance of the area. However, I do care about the historical implications of how the treatment of the Palestinians by the state of Israel has affected the entire region.

            I also think one of the other reasons this Israeli-Palestinian conflict gets so much attention compared to the other countries you listed is because of the way America is involved in the dynamic. It is a unique situation, and one which enrages many people like me who feel some responsibility for the deaths occurring in Gaza right now.

            Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

            by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:39:46 PM PST

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            •  The fact is you could throw a dart at a map (0+ / 0-)

              of Sub-Saharan Africa and most likely hit a place where the people would find the living standards and physical safety of Palestinians to be a drastic improvement over theirs, and you're talking about the better part of a billion people, so this fixation on I/P is truly insane.  Wars have been fought in the past decade alone in Africa that cost over a million lives a piece, and got maybe three, four headlines a year in the Western media.  

              But let's leave aside Africa - things were a lot worse in Chechnya for a long time than in I/P, but I/P still got all the headlines.  Ditto for the Balkans.  The proof is in the pudding that this isn't about the level of violence or oppression, or else worse situations would get more attention.  They don't.  And I don't consider "lopsided power dynamics" to be a meaningful measure of something's moral significance.  If it were, then Tibet would get the same treatment as I/P if not more, but it doesn't - there are no deranged rants on the internet over Tibet by people who aren't Tibetans.  It's an issue almost entirely fueled by hatred and insane bigotries, and shorn of that bullshit, it boils down to relatively small numbers of people fighting over scraps of desert.  Fuck them.

              "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

              by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:04:53 PM PST

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            •  I need to clarify this: (0+ / 0-)
              It's an issue almost entirely fueled by hatred and insane bigotries, and shorn of that bullshit, it boils down to relatively small numbers of people fighting over scraps of desert.  Fuck them.
              This is referring to I/P, not the Tibetan issue I had addressed in the sentence immediately preceding it.

              "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

              by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:08:34 PM PST

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              •  I dunno (0+ / 0-)

                I actually do care about all of that, but I don't come to DKos to see discussion for it. I go to other sites to see those discussions. To be honest, DKos pretty much sucks when it comes to discussions of folks of color in general. It's fairly non-existant unless a lot of white people are involved as well.

                And I disagree with your assessment about the living conditions of the Palestinians compared to sub-Saharan Africans. Palestinians in the West Bank are living better than many in Sub-Saharan Africa, but Gaza is now the most densely populated nation in the entire world and is completely dependent on outside aid.

                Let's be honest, though. The reason why there are diaries about this is because most people still get their news from traditional media. The traditional American media doesn't give a shit about black people (American or otherwise), doesn't give a shit about most people outside the US, but absolutely loves the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because they get to keep their stupid narrative of the West versus the East going well into the 21st century. Until more Americans move away from traditional media sources, our diaries will reflect what is shown on television.

                Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:27:26 PM PST

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      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
        Anyone who can tell you more about Israel/Palestine than any one of those other countries has their priorities fucked up.
        Idiotic comment.
        •  "Idiotic comment." (0+ / 0-)

          Knee-jerk non sequitur.

          "They fear this man. They know he will see farther than they, and he will bind them with ancient logics." -The stoner guy in The Cabin in the Woods

          by Troubadour on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:11:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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