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View Diary: Shocking World Bank Climate Report 'A 4 degree C World Can And Must Be Avoided' (98 comments)

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  •  The World Bank? (6+ / 0-)

    Does this mean some of the 1% are waking up to reality?

    "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

    by US Blues on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:28:45 AM PST

    •  they're waking up to reality as they fund coal (8+ / 0-)

      plants.  The hypocrisy is stunning.  See my comment above re 1,000 new coal plants.  It has a link to the financiers including World Bank

      Macca's Meatless Monday

      by VL Baker on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:44:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am sorry (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pescadero Bill

        what coal plants is the world bank funding?

        If you look at their projects, they are funding a single coal bed methane project out of the thosands they fund.

        It sounds like your diary needs an update to describe just [what the world bank is and what they do www.worldbank.org]  because it sounds like people hear the word "bank" and jump to all kinds of misguided assumptions.  This is NOT citibank we are talking here.

        Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

        by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:13:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, there have been four recent projects, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior

          projects the might not happen because they've been protested widely. Nonetheless, it was World Bank's intention to fund multiple projects.

          •  citations? (0+ / 0-)

            Because I am having trouble finding these.  The WB did pull out of the Thar project in 2010 under pressure, and I recall ones in China that I believe were cancelled along the same time frame.  As for the remaining ones, I'm not finding those.  The WB project database doesn't seem to list them, but perhaps because they were indirect loans or something.  When you get a chance, I'd love to look at those.

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:26:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Never mind (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior

            I found references to the TATA plant in Indian from 2007 to 2011 and some others.  

            I stand corrected.

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:29:13 PM PST

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    •  um, no (0+ / 0-)

      you do realize that the World Bank is largely involved in funding development projects in the developing world.  THeir mandate is ending poverty.  Definitely NOT a 1%er organization.

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:08:41 AM PST

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      •  Oh, I vehemently disagree (7+ / 0-)

        The World Bank is 100% a 1%ers organization.

        Pick up a copy of Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine".  You'll get a much better idea of how the World Bank and IMF manipulate the economies of developing countries in favor of the 1%.

        Here's a very short summary of the World Bank and IMF roles in the third world, but the entire book should be on every progressive's "must read" list.

        "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

        by Richard Cranium on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:19:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

          that so explains the spending on water pumps.

          Not sure how credible Naomi Klein is at this point, really.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:17:21 AM PST

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          •  You should really do some reading (4+ / 0-)

            Start with the Bolivian water war.

            Naomi Klein is one of the most credible and relevant progressive writers on the planet.

            "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

            by Richard Cranium on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:43:15 AM PST

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            •  She has a tendency (0+ / 0-)

              to over state her case rather considerably, to the point of distortion.  

              What she shows is a general sense of disdain for any solution involving the private sector, which may or may not be justified.  Now, I'm not going to defend every project the World Bank has done, but I'm not so foolish as to suggest that the World Bank is the second coming of Goldman Sachs either.  WB has their approach, whic has varied over time, but their mission is still alleviating poverty, not lining Wall Streeter's pockets.  They take on projects that the private sector (your REAL 1%ers) will not.  That's why they exist in fact.  You'll remember that the World Bank has been in this business for over 60 years and has had a lot of different phases and approaches, but a lot of progressive thinking has derived from the World Bank itself mulling over its own mistakes in the past. Now, clearly there's disagreement within the development community about how the WB has gone about its business, but that's a far cry from saying that they are out to stick it to the world's poor.

              As it turns out, I'm very familiar with the Bolivian water wars and, seemingly, rather a broader range of their activities than most here, which may be why I take Wolf's conclusions with some grains of salt, since I have other experience to compare it to.  So, being familiar with the organization, and the good and bad of it, I'm going to place a big question mark next to the name of those who go about painting the WB as some kind of horrible villain.  Clearly, there's a ton of misinformation floating around out there.  For example, our very own diarist was railing on the WB for funding coal projects.  Problem?  They aren't funding coal projects anymore.  Case in point.

              So, I'm going to stick with my well earned skepticism here, thanks

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:10:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Naomi Klein, not Naomi Wolf (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                elwior, Words In Action

                Two completely different writers.

                WB has their approach, whic has varied over time, but their mission is still alleviating poverty, not lining Wall Streeter's pockets.  They take on projects that the private sector (your REAL 1%ers) will not.
                That is not true - or at best, a half truth.  WB will take on projects if the end result is privatization of the public service being funded.

                And your argument really falls apart (or fell apart, as the case may be) the day that George W. Bush tapped Paul Wolfowitz to head the World Bank.  Quite a legacy for ol' Paul, there, if you so care to read.

                With that, I'm going to back out of this discussion.

                "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

                by Richard Cranium on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:27:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Of course (0+ / 0-)

                  Can't have anyone challenging your world view right?

                  and of course Dr. Kim is the president now.  However, if you were familiar with the organization and had worked with them in the past, you'd realize that it's a pretty significantly large organization that does a fairly wide range of activities, many, many of which are not the giant mega projects I think you are complaining about.  

                  I direct you to look at the WB website for the projects they do, because if you read them, you'll notice that a very large proportion do not involve any private entitites whatsoever.  I did find a local water development project in Vietnam that involves local private entities alongside government agencies.  There's a Climate Change adaptation program in NIcaragua that  is run by the Department of Natural Resources developing awareness of vegetation management and other local practices.  No Wall Street involvement there.  The list goes on and on and on.  I doubt your view of the institution would last long if you spent time actually reading the reports and reviews that the World Bank actually conducts.  There are literally thousands worldwide. They can be found here

                  And that's not even getting started on the basic research and data collection the bank does  I'm sure there's some way to contort how counting poor people is good for the 1%, but I'm at a loss to see what it is.

                  Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                  by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:41:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  you are kidding us right? (3+ / 0-)

            naomi klein is more than credible; she is one degree short of visionary

            and the world bank and imf have a superficial commitment to ending poverty while having a quite transparent agenda of protecting the 1%

            i'm not saying they are all filled with evil dooers, but the evil dooers have had control of their most important policy moves for a long time.

            you need to do a lot of reading.  seriously.

            Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

            by BlueDragon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:51:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you know (0+ / 0-)

              when people disagree with you, you shouldn't assume they know less than you do.  They might, in fact, know more than you, or they might know different things from you, or they might have reached different conclusions.

              As it turns out, I've done quite a bit of reading.

              I would recommend you go to the world bank site and spend time just looking through the projects they fund and you'll find that this myth that they only fund giant projects to benefit wealthy banks is just that, a myth.  

              Yes, that's part of what they've done, and for a while that was their focused.  However, they also do many other projects that do not operate that way.  

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:24:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  i have a friend at the world bank (0+ / 0-)

                i know pretty well how they work.  no matter what they may fund or what parts of the institution may say, they are not a force for good.  period.  now that could change, but such a change would be fought from all quarters who have invested in the overall project.

                if you have a bigger point to make: make it with evidence.  dissing naomi klein tipped me off to your skewed perspective right away.  you didn't supply one iota of evidence as to why you believe she is debunked or whatever you said.  not one iota on a site which takes her work seriously as a model and will continue to do so.  

                the world is out of whack in a big way, but it is not as simple as the poor in other nations versus the poor in this nation.  all of this exists in complex relation.

                my friend was hired and promoted inside the world bank because of her knowledge of poverty, but that doesn't make them a 'good' organization overall.

                Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

                by BlueDragon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 01:04:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, and, with regards to water pumps (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior

            World Bank and IMF funding for such projects is always - always - contingent on privatizing the water supply in developing countries.  Always.  There is no altruism on the part of either organization.  They force privatization of all public services in developing countries as a condition for loans and project funding.

            "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

            by Richard Cranium on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:54:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, that's not really true (0+ / 0-)

              Go examine their actual projects.  You'll find numeous water supply projects where that is not the focus, in fact.

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:25:20 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  After 2008? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Richard Cranium, elwior

            Pretty damn credible.

            We get what we want - or what we fail to refuse. - Muhammad Yunus

            by nightsweat on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:59:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not sure how credible it is for you to trash (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior

            an author without supporting evidence.

            •  Wolf has her own perspective (0+ / 0-)

              but it isn't without it's issues.  I would suggest you go look at what the world bank actually does, not what Klein says they do.

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:26:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are co-mingling two authors (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                elwior, Words In Action

                Both have the first name of "Naomi".

                Now, go read "Shock Doctrine", by Naomi KLEIN.  Not reviews, not synopses, read all 800 pages.  Then come on back, and we can have a conversation.  Feel free to Kosmail me when you're ready.

                BTW, I have a bit of experience with this stuff, too.

                "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

                by Richard Cranium on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:33:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  blech (0+ / 0-)

                  you are correct.

                  However, you should go read some of the project reports and documentation from the World Bank.  Kosmail me when you've read a bunch of them.

                  Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                  by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:34:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  If you live on more than $1 a day, you're a 1%er (0+ / 0-)

      by world bank standards!

      (virtually all Americans are actually 1%ers by global standards)

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:22:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  your thinking needs a reboot (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior

        most americans are cogs in a global machine.  our apparent wealth relative to others is completely ephemeral.

        i don't even know what to suggest you begin reading first.  maybe some other kossacks can give you a suggested reading list.

        i'm out of ideas right now.  that's how shocked i am by your 'perspective'

        Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

        by BlueDragon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:53:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you are shocked (0+ / 0-)

          you should probably travel around the world a little more.

          Much of the world lives on under $10,000 a year, and the median income in the US places a household well into the upper echelons of global society economically.  The US consumes a vastly greater number of resources per capita than just about anywhere in the rest of the world.

          This is in no way contradictory to the notion that Americans are cogs (if relatively wealthy ones) in the machine or that the wealth is ephemeral.  However, one perspective that Americans typcially lack is just how different much of the rest of the world is.

          I suspect the issue isn't that I haven't read enough, but rather that I've read too much, such that I think very critically of all of it.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:22:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i am more than aware of all these numbers (0+ / 0-)

            but what you aren't aware of is their meaning in context.  the idea that the poor in this country are wealthy relative to the rest of the world completely ignores what people need to live healthy and reasonably safe lives.  

            i've read and traveled and lived in a lot of places including at the near bottom of the usa and vice versa.  i know of what i speak.

            owning a microwave is not a measure of wealth or health, quite the reverse.

            Donate to Occupy Wall Street here: http://nycga.cc/donate/

            by BlueDragon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 12:58:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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