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View Diary: SoS Hillary Clinton and Egyptian Foreign Minister Announce Cease-Fire Between Hamas and Israel (163 comments)

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  •  Well, Hillary will clearly face a challenge (0+ / 0-)

    from the Left if she decides to run.  That is fine.

    You might want to consider that Hamas is claiming vindication right now for the killing of their leader.  The Hamas rockets were not an imaginary threat.

    •  I agree (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, wu ming, SCFrog, poco

      which is why I think Israel shouldn't have violated a de facto truce, or refused years of offers for an extended ceasefire in exchange for ending its siege, and why I think the U.S. shouldn't have enabled it to do all of the above.

      I'm not sure what exactly you mean about Hamas claiming vindication, but you can be sure that both the Israeli government and Hamas will be trying to present this as a victory, probably in the most belligerent and unapologetic language they can muster. They're political leaders and parties, after all.

      •  heath, I think Hillary is learning some new tricks (3+ / 0-)

        from Obama, younger as he is.

        The proof will be a little bit in the pudding.

        500m buffer zones? drones? a true easing of the siege?

        If they pull this off, then my hat is off to both of them.

        •  If the siege is eased (7+ / 0-)

          it will be because of a) Palestinian rockets, and b) the shifting of the regional balance of power (espec. Egypt and Turkey) against Israel. It won't be to do with Hillary Clinton's personal charisma.

          •  Point made. But would u credit Obama at least? (3+ / 0-)

            I do. sorry.

            And Clinton at least flew back and forth... that's what it sometimes takes. Her rhetoric is hopeless, yes.

            •  It's just the wrong way to look at it, imo. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SDuvall, wu ming, poco, AoT

              The US initially refused to even call for a ceasefire. What turned it around wasn't some strategic genius or benevolence on the part of Obama or Clinton, but pressure from Egypt and Turkey.

              What I'm trying to push back against, is the pervasive reflex here to try to reduce these issues to personalities. The U.S. did pressure Israel for a ceasefire, eventually. This wasn't as a favour, and it's not deserving of "credit". It was a response to the balance of forces in the region.

              I also want to push back against the feel-good idea, already creeping in, that the siege was in place because of the rockets, and so now, with a ceasefire, it can be eased. Wrong: the rockets happened because of the siege, and without the rockets, the siege would not be ending (if indeed it is).

              •  And if the embargo is lifted and the Rockets start (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kane in CA

                flying... then what?

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 03:03:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I suggest you ask MK Ilan Gilon that. (0+ / 0-)

                  I assume that you'll trust his answer more than mine.

                  •  Show me it... I don't get Meretz' feed anymore (0+ / 0-)

                    on FB. I used to but I have moved more in my support to Avodah. I like and respect Meretz, but my ideas are a bit different from theirs. Of course I am not an Israeli, so honestly, it doesn't matter who I support (with my $) as long as it not Yesha, Likud, or that crazy new "Israel Strong" party (Ben-Ari, Eldad, and crew).

                    Actually right now for my Israel donations I mostly donate to the Magen David Adom. It is what I feel best about. Most of my political donations though all go to American causes (Red Cross for Sandy for example), most of which this year went to help President Obama's re-election.

                    But honestly... I think I am done with I/P here. I am not pleased with what I am feeling regarding this latest exchange. Maybe my Krav Training is changing my outlook and I find myself in a place that I don't really like politically. Just FYI we don't talk much about politics though... it is just the overall philosophy of it. I see people here talking about Hamas Rockets as being a victory of sorts and I see reports of people in Gaza celebrating the bus bombing and I go to a place I am sure that I would not like if I sat down and thought about it.

                    SO... It's time for me to disengage from I/P and just focus on aspects of this site that I can agree with, such as trying to advocate for a reasonable progressive direction for the Democratic Party. I have my own place to go to when I want to discuss the Middle East with people I trust and like. That should be good enough.

                    We'll see if I really can follow through on holding off I/P. I hope so. I would be much happier.

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 04:30:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  U know there's no daylight between us re: siege (0+ / 0-)

                But perhaps being in the UK you have not followed Obama as closely to recognize his distinctive style in getting stuff done. I recognize his fingerprints all over this story.

                Style aside, the personality thing here is really about George W. Bush. He deviated from longstanding US behavior in the Middle East in so many ways.

                This cease-fire is the first sign that Obama is finally bringing the US back to its more traditional pattern involvement vis-a-vis I-P. i.e., as a critical check and balance on Israeli excesses.

                But I leave open the possibility that I'm reading this wrong. Anyway, a bittersweet ending. At least hopefully tomorrow there won't be 20+ violent deaths and 4 million disrupted lives there.

                •  Well, Assaf, (0+ / 0-)

                  there we strongly disagree. I see US policy on Israel-Palestine as characterised overwhelmingly by continuity rather than change, and I don't see either Bush or Obama as having departed radically from this. (Actually have just written an essay documenting this re. US policy towards the PA across the Clinton, Bush and Obama admins - will hopefully post it here soon).

                  But - I think we can agree on this! - that's a debate for another time.

    •  It was only "Hamas rockets" after his death (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, SCFrog, Russgirl, poco, AoT

      Before, the small number of rockets being fired were mainly coming from rival groups (like Islamic Jihad), and Hamas was trying to clamp down on them.  Hamas didn't start full-scale rocket attacks until after the assassination of Ahmed al-Ja'abari.  The rocket attacks are neither justifiable nor intelligent (why is a religious party firing missiles at Jerusalem, one of the holiest cities in Islam, rockets so crappy that they could hit anything, including a holy site or a Palestinian neighborhood?) but it was completely predictable.  Escalation produces counter-escalation.

      Al-Ja'abari believed that he was negotiating a truce; he had previously negotiated to free the Israeli POW, Gilad Shalit. It appears that this was a setup, and that just sends the message that trying to negotiate peace with the Israelis can be fatal, as it exposes one's location.

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