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View Diary: The battle against (certain) science continues apace (152 comments)

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  •  Faith is important to conservatives. (31+ / 0-)

    None of their ideas for the economy or governance actually work:  they rely on people simply believing that they will one day.  

    In order to pull this off, they must suspend reality across the board.   For the whole thing to work, one must learn to not believe his own eyes, ears and experiences.

    •  Thank you! Been saying for years that (15+ / 0-)

      Dems base their thinking on FACTS, while GOPers base theirs on FAITH.

      What separates us, divides us, and diminishes the human spirit.

      by equern on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:24:23 PM PST

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      •  Heh-heh. (8+ / 0-)

        Look what that "faith" got them 19 days ago.

        There are two types of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.

        by Phil T Duck on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:47:19 PM PST

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      •  no, not faith, but a certain religious creed (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenearth, rb608, janislav, leonard145b

        Faith is noun with broad meanings, many of them not spiritually connected ...for example, I have faith that Obama will be a better president than Romney ... I have a certain amount of evidence to base that on, but there is still a lack that must be covered by my faith in Obama's intelligence and character and displayed philosophies ...

        I have a certain amount of faith in my fellow citizens in spite of a lot of evidence to the contrary ...

        As it happens I happen to have a faith in a Creative Being, but it does not lead to a literal interpretation of the book called the Bible .. my faith in a Creative Being comes from my conviction that evolution is how life on planet earth came to be what it is now ...

        and in actuality the GOP has no faith in humans, or in the God described in the Bible (which by the way is a book that evolved .. it didn't get dictated verbatim to anyone) .. the GOP has grabbed hold of many fringe religious views  and that is what guides it ...not faith
        but creeds that are repudiated by most intelligent biblical scholars

        Give your heart a real workout! Love your enemies!

        by moonbatlulu on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:04:44 PM PST

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        •  Apocryphal (4+ / 0-)

          There's an old story about a schoolboy who was asked to define "faith" on an exam and wrote "Believing what you know is not so".

          Which is of course not the sense you meant.

          •  no, I didn't mean to imply that faith (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rb608, janislav, JG in MD

            was a completely willful and deliberate denial of reality ...

            my favorite definition of faith comes from Rudolf Bultmann..."Faith is the ability to see the hand of God in everyday events" ....

            This probably means more to me because of the circumstances in which I encountered the definition.  

            At a certain time in my life, I was surrounded by people involved in the 'Jesus Movement" ... some of you older ones will know what I am talking about.... however, these people did not believe anything was good unless it could be  labeled 'miraculous' ... everyone was always praying for miracles .. don't go to doctors, just be healed (the less said of this the better) .. if you didn't go whole hog for miracles, well, then you had no 'faith'

            but these people couldn't see God working  in a flower blooming or people being kind to one another .. or just simple joys of life ... if it was God working, well, it better  be absolutely extraordinary ...
            so encountering that sentence of Bultmann's answered a lot for me ... and this doesn't mean I believe that the Creative Love in the Universe is 'interfering' .. I believe that evolution was given a free will to develop and that the Creative Love watches in delight as evolution goes where it will ...
            and I know of at least two other people that also believe that (One being my parish priest and the other my vet) ... so I am not a lonely kook in this regard

            Give your heart a real workout! Love your enemies!

            by moonbatlulu on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:33:34 PM PST

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            •  Lonely kook? I think not (0+ / 0-)

              Every time I look at something that doesn't have to be beautiful and yet it is, like tropical birds or a lovely sunset, I know there must be a God.

              Also, given the existence of giraffes, elephants and house pets, I know She has a wicked sense of humor.

              I suddenly started a blog.

              by JG in MD on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 05:53:36 AM PST

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              •  To paraphrase: (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JG in MD, cybersaur, madcitysailor

                Then perhaps your science is not big enough.

                Natural beauty has a scientific base. A diamond is not beautiful when cut because of some intent. It is so because of the crystalline structure of the thing interacting with light to which our eyes are adapted to sense. The color and beauty to us and potential mates in tropical birds also has an evolutionary basis. Modern ornithology has demonstrated some amazing quirks on that subject.

                Teleological thinking lures us into many a trap of attributing natural things to supernatural cause. Interestingly enough teleological thinking itself may be an evolutionary feature. That tendency, and too little real science in our schools, tends to perpetuate everything from hard core "creation 'science'" to relatively harmless interpretation of perfectly natural phenomena as support for the supernatural.

                The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                by pelagicray on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 06:09:34 AM PST

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                •  Beauty (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  You're absolutely right. And I still believe that the amazing nature of beauty and humor means that the world is not only more than we imagine it to be but more than we can imagine it to be.

                  I suddenly started a blog.

                  by JG in MD on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 06:22:04 AM PST

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                  •  Interesting how close science can be to relion in (0+ / 0-)

                    many ways.

                    Some see the wonders of a god working miracles in nature where others, such as myself, find the workings of things revealed by science very wonderful indeed.

                    We see beauty in the color of flowers but the pollinators those flowers have evolved to attract, sometimes amazingly, frighteningly and precariously unique, do not see those colors at all. They see in ranges we cannot, yet the chemical combinations doing that are beautiful to us in our spectrum. Purely incidental. Wonderful.

                    Death and rebirth in religion? How about the multiverse? Perhaps when our universe suffers heat death in our bubble another is born?

                    The great mystery? Assume there is a god. What was before? How did that happen! Assume there are bubble universes, a multiverse. What is outside? What was before? How did that happen! We know something exists or at least a lot of us act as if it does. How did that happen?

                    I call myself a hard agnostic. I can no more disprove some sort of god than I can prove how all that happened. Therefore I cannot say categorically there is no god. I just see absolutely no necessity for one in the natural universe that we also will never know completely. Understanding what we can of our universe or multiverse's very real rules and how we relate to other beings is much, much more interesting that the silly, often downright petty, rules of so many religions.

                    The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                    by pelagicray on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 05:21:15 PM PST

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                    •  Yes. What you said. (0+ / 0-)

                      I didn't know the pollinators didn't see the colors. It limits reality to posit a god or God, it reduces the concept of the limitless multiverse. Now that we can see distant galaxies through telescopes, we know even with our little minds that beauty is limitless.

                      I suddenly started a blog.

                      by JG in MD on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 02:13:36 PM PST

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        •  You mean confidence (0+ / 0-)

          The word you are looking for is confidence; that is, an expectation justified by past experience.

    •  It's one thing for them to suspend reality; it's (8+ / 0-)

      another thing entirely when they want to force their "suspended" reality on the rest of the country...Game on!

      Robber Baron "ReTHUGisms": John D. Rockefeller -"The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets"; Jay Gould -"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."

      by ranton on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:32:05 PM PST

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    •  Poor conservatives, especially evangelicals. (3+ / 0-)

      They're stuck having to rationalize the science they see all around them and even the scientific evidence for things they refuse to acknowledge but which stubbornly continue to exist; also with their faith in the literal truth of a book that itself contains its own contradictions that can not be explained away.  They must live in times that don't conform to some parts of their book - and differences between their god's "laws" (like the ones laid down in Leviticus) and the laws they must live with in the real world.

      These things can never be reconciled, and they know it.  They're confused and angry and resentful.  They lash out at things they can not, and will not, be allowed to change.  It's a pity they have to live in the conundrum they have constructed for themselves, but I'm not about to allow them to work out their confusion and anger on the rest of us.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 09:00:24 PM PST

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