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View Diary: Why do so many folks here use the term "Old Testament" as code for barbarism? (265 comments)

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  •  The only flaws I see in your point.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sandbox, Smoh, Kevskos

    Are that you seem to be comparing modern versions of these religions and not their original intent.

    For example...

    Today Christianity is about the 'Father Son and the Holy Ghost' but that is far less true in the first century. Much of the polytheistic nature of modern Christianity is from the early Catholic Church trying to absorb the polytheisms of Europe at the time.

    Nor do I believe that Jews in the second century BCE thought arguing with God made you a good Jew.

    I am discussing 'founding principles' not modern interpretations.

    Christianity and Islam were founded on Judaism, but under the pretext that modern Judaism (at the time) had lost its way and were attempts to go back to the original intent of the religion.

    This is a simplification, but fundamentally true...

    Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

    by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 04:58:58 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  The concept of 'original intent' is questionable. (1+ / 0-)
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      CroneWit

      Can you really, honestly discuss the 'founding principles' of an organically developed indigenous culture? Because if you're talking about the point at which the Talmud was written, then absolutely it was understood that arguing with God was inherent in ('fundamental', even) being a Jew.

      And really,

      Christianity and Islam were founded on Judaism, but under the pretext that modern Judaism (at the time) had lost its way and were attempts to go back to the original intent of the religion.

      No.

      That's a later construction.

      •  You do realize that the Talmud... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, Kevskos, Sandino

        Is post NT (well contemporary and later) and hardly the text to base 'founding principles' of Judaism on?

        I must admit I am losing confidence in your expressed expertise here and will leave the conversation at that...

        Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

        by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 05:16:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Neither Judaism nor Hinduism were "founded" (0+ / 0-)

        They evolved.  The terms refer to a set of beliefs that were taught, argued about, and written about over hundreds of years, going back into the legendary periods of their histories.  And their religious writings contain the traces of these earlier versions of custom, beliefs and ideas.

        In the case of the Hebrew scriptures, the texts themselves were shaped according to beliefs of last couple of centuries before the Common Era, but the older substrates are still there if you look (as folks like Wellhausen showed).

        So yeah, fToRrEeEsSt's doin' it wrong.

        [I]t is totally not true that Mitt Romney strapped Paul Ryan to the top of a car and drove him to Canada. Stop spreading rumors! -- Gail Collins

        by mbayrob on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 11:16:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  How do you explain Abraham arguing with God? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      You wrote:

      Nor do I believe that Jews in the second century BCE thought arguing with God made you a good Jew.
      But they included in Genesis a story where Abraham did argue with God.  And in Exodus a story where Moses argued with God.

      And what about the midrash about how halacha is not decided in heaven, even if a voice comes down and rules against the majority?  Was that not fairly ancient?  How far do you think that is from original intent?

      •  Well i am not sure pleading for mercy... (0+ / 0-)

        is arguing. but that could be semantics so I will call it a toss up.

        And he did not 'argue' when told to sacrifice his own son.

        So though there may be examples of 'arguing' with God it is hardly a major theme one can pull from the OT as the basis of a founding principle.

        None the less it is open to interpretation which is one of the main problems of the Bible in that it contradicts itself enough one can argue many different views from it.

        So I will leave it as my opinion that the Bible does not give enough consistent examples for me to feel confident that its supportive/promoting arguing with god.

        Your opinion is as valid as mine though...

        Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

        by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 06:12:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The very name Yisroel (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Diamond Mind

          in Hebrew can mean "Strives with God", or  "one that struggled with the divine angel" (Josephus), "one who has prevailed with God" (Rashi).

          America—We built that!

          by Mokurai on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 10:18:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It can mean a lot of things... (0+ / 0-)

            but one must look at the context of time frame and who is doing the translating and when.

            It can also just mean descendant of Jacob.

            Remember Josephus comes to us in Greek not Hebrew so its all translation...

            Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

            by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 10:31:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're reasoning backwards. (0+ / 0-)

              "Israel" means "descendant of Jacob" because in the story God gives Jacob the new name of Israel.  And he got that name because he (in the story) wrestled with God's angel.

              And we don't see Torah only in translation.   In services, the Torah is read in the original.  We don't need Josephus to translate it into Greek and then read a translation from Greek to English.  

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