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View Diary: Why do so many folks here use the term "Old Testament" as code for barbarism? (265 comments)

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  •  I don't see it overall, no. (1+ / 0-)
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    CroneWit

    Remember the original diary was talking about people suggesting that the NT was a kinder, gentler version of the OT?

    So no, I don't see the abject barbarianism of the OT, and in fact, you are abiding by the 10 commandments.  (Hopefully you'll also follow most of the holiness code that I posted, too. I am surprised that an atheist follows the 1st and 4th commandments, but whatever.)  And if you're following the OT laws, to serve as guidelines to live by in a civilized society, then that is as much praise of the OT that I need.

    You can forget all the supernaturalism if you like, or treat it as a morality tale.

    •  Well in a way it is... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, gustynpip, CroneWit

      There are far fewer deaths, plagues, acts of incest, etc...in the NT than the OT. Though this is probably more a refection of some 1500 years of civilization than any specific intent of the authors.

      As far as the commandments go...

      The first is easy since there is no god for me to put above, though you are correct that the 4th is basically irrelevant to my life. (Though that is also generally true for all believers but the most orthodox, so...).

      Anyway I was making a point that there is wisdom in these religious texts even to an atheist more than trying to express how I live my life by the commandments.

      Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

      by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 05:10:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not if you count the afterlife (0+ / 0-)

        In the NT, any non-believer goes to hell forever in the afterlife and gets tortured.

        It's a short step from there to having people try to torture you in this life to try to "save" you (and anybody who might use you as a role model) from the same fate.

        •  Chapter & verse, please. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          millwood

          for --

          In the NT, any non-believer goes to hell forever in the afterlife and gets tortured.
          •  Yea this is a bit ambiguous... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CroneWit

            Since what we call 'hell' today is at best only briefly and subjectively mentioned in the Bible.

            The problem with discussing religions is they change over time and sometimes its hard to separate modern beliefs from their origins.

            This is why my chain of posts here is specifically referring to these religions in their earliest states.

            Unfortunately is does not take long for a religion, once popular, to get corrupted by the power it has over its followers thus leading to sometimes vast changes from their earliest incarnations.

            One need only look from the teaching of Jesus to the Vatican of today to see how vast the changes can be.

            Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

            by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 10:23:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never (1+ / 0-)
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            CroneWit

            Look at the following text from John 11, which goes

            And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die.
            This is used in some Protestant funeral rites, and is commonly understood to mean that "those that don't believe in [Christ]" are, well, SOL.

            Certainly, the complex of beliefs around the Adversary, Hell, and Damnation are probably Iranian in origin, and they do appear to have been current contemporary with the First Century of the common era when Jesus lived, and after when the Gospels were composed.   You may well be right that they are not spelled out explicitly in the Christian cannon, but it's not coincidential that Satan gets more than a few mentions, and essentially none in the Hebrew scripture.  The later's the case most,  I think, because the Redactors (such as Ezra) had mostly finished their work before Zoroasterism had influenced Jewish thought much.

            I suspect that it is possible to hold strong Christian beliefs and not believe in the traditional Christian Hell, but I think that even if these beliefs are post NT, they are at least common in Christian belief.   Even if they have more to do with Vergil and Hellenistic conceptions of the afterlife than they do with what the Early Christians wrote or actually believed.

            [I]t is totally not true that Mitt Romney strapped Paul Ryan to the top of a car and drove him to Canada. Stop spreading rumors! -- Gail Collins

            by mbayrob on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 11:54:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's a combination of multiple verses (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CroneWit, Paul Rogers

            John 8:24

            I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he.
            (If you don't believe Jesus is son of God, you will "die in your sins" -- which means go to hell)

            Mark 9:47-48

            ... it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
            where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
            (If you go to hell, you suffer eternal fire that is never quenched.)

            Also Rev 20:15

            ...and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
            (sinners are thrown into the lake of fire)

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