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View Diary: Why do so many folks here use the term "Old Testament" as code for barbarism? (265 comments)

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  •  Chapter & verse, please? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    librarisingnsf, millwood

    For this --

    Everybody who doesn't believe that the holy spirit proceedeth from the father and the son is going to be thrown into a lake of fire where he will experience eternal conscious torment.
    The filioque clause is from the Catholic Church, developed over the centuries as they continued to codify their mandatory orthodox beliefs.  The 'lake of fire' thing is from Revelations, and frankly I don't remember who it was that got punished with it, or for what infractions, but the filoque thing wasn't until centuries later.
    •  Paul's doctrine of grace... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      teaches that you are saved if and only if you "believe him", otherwise you are condemned (and you go to hell).

      The accepted interpretation of "believe him" includes "believe everything he (allegedly) said, either directly or through his apostles".  

      So when John (who is allegedly an apostle) quotes him in 15:26:

      But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me
      then this verse (according to Paul's doctrine of grace, which is a majority position in Christianity, and especially so in Protestant denominations) suddenly gets promoted to one of the things you have to believe in to avoid being condemned.

      It is treated as "the word of the Lord". And indirectly, so is everything Paul said.  So is everything Matthew said about Jesus being born of a virgin.

      The net effect, for many many Christians (not just supersessionists), is that (1) there are no degrees of guilt; everyone without exception is already 100% guilty and merits hell, (2) certain people are pardoned and become 0% guilty, (3) the criterion for whether you're pardoned or not is not how righteous you were in life, but whether or not you "believe", and that includes getting the doctrine right.

      How you get the filioque from John 15:26 is another matter and it's beyond my comprehension.  I only know that once it was decided by group A that this what the verse meant, then anyone in group B who didn't believe this was anathema and bound for hell.  People went to war over stuff like this.  The Cathars were murdered, not over the filioque, but over some other stupid bit of doctrine that hardly anyone today understands (including me).

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