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View Diary: Another Deal thread (227 comments)

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  •  Relax (none)
    For nearly 6 years now, we've all been screaming about cowboy politics, the "get 'em up and ride" mentality that has gotten us into a possibly unwinnable war.

    Some Kossacks want nothing more than for us to embrace the very thing we hate, the thing that we know is bad for the country and the world.

    Compromise occurs when both sides are uncertain of victory.  Status quo -- preservation of the right to filibuster -- is a victory.  One Senator can someday try to push the button on the nuclear option, but it will take 49 more to agree.

    We could not have afforded a miscalculation, and putting all seven judges on the bench via the nuke option would have been the worst possible outcome.  The nation's welfare had to come first, and it did.  And we won.

    Frist blinked, and we did not have to resort to Crusader politics.  He is weaker today and Dobson is throwing shit around his office right now, wondering against whom to begin the retribution of the allegedly righteous.

    •  The revenge of Dobson (none)
      still remains to be seen. Hannity is howling. wonder if he can get Dobson on?
    •  asdf (none)
      I really don't understand how the Repubs have given up anything. The Dems, on the other hand, have lost a lot of leverage.
      •  Logically... (none)
        ...if the Dems had no leverage, there would have been no talks and no compromise.

        The moderates in both parties prevented the nuke option.

        Remember what was at stake:

        > The right to block extremist Supreme Court appointments
        > Preservation of the long tradition of respect for the minority in the Senate.

        Repugs blinked because they knew the American people did not support them -- again, as in the Schiavo overreach and in Social Security -- and that their nuclear option win would eventually become a devastating loss.

        Again, ask yourself logically:  If the GOP had been certain of having the votes, would there have been a compromise at all?

        These fights over Schiavo, Social Security and the nuclear option have cost the party support, which means money, which means seats in the 2006 elections and perhaps beyond.  Democrats didn't lose a thing, and gained the power to push back at the most ridiculous agenda in American history.

        Let's see how much the Rethugs get through Congress before 2006.

        A win, a win, a win.

        •  What did we win??? (none)
          The repubs still have all the options they had before but with fewer stigmas. The repubs get their judges and the dems get to promise to be really good with use of the filibuster. Logically, if you follow this out you will see that the dems have fewer options and less leverage. Maybe this isn't a loss but it sure is hell not a win.

          The public was behind us. If that's not a time to fight then when is it?

          •  Leverage preserved (none)
            Do you think those weasel words about "extraordinary" really mean anything?

            Dems would argue that any of their filibusters are "extraordinary".  Their ability to use a filibuster is unchanged (as is the Rethugs' ability to call for the nuclear option).

            But that's not the point.

            Look at Dobson's and Frist's statements -- they failed to carry home the seven judges.  They and Bush/Rove defined victory as all seven and no less.

            They failed. They know it.  Dobson even called the Democrats "united".  And now the Radical Christian Dominionists will begin to eat their own base as revenge.

            It's a win, period.

            •  WTF (none)
              And still no one has explained why it was a good deal to piss away our hard won public support for our position. Now the the repubs will have the chance to do away with the filibuster under cover of the dems broken promise.
              •  Here's why (none)
                Compromise indicates both sides were uncertain of victory.  If Democrats had seen it through to the bitter end and lost, the moral "victory" they would have claimed for having made the fight would have been an empty claim.

                We'd have had all 7 of the Judicial Dwarves on the bench AND have lost the filibuster.

                That was too much risk, regardless of the potential reward of victory.

                Now, let's talk about the next time the Rethugs wanna get rid of the filibuster.

                First, had we seen the fight through to the bitter end and WON, it only meant that the filibuster had been preserved THIS TIME.  This would not have codified the filibuster into law.  Instead, the informal rules and precedences of the Senate would have remained as they were.

                And that means that the GOP could have tried at any time in the future to kill the filibuster.

                A loss, however, would have changed the filibuster rule forever.  Or at least until after the 2006 elections.

                As for the Republicans using the pretext of a Democrat broken promise to launch the next filibuster fight, remember that this crew needs no pretext.  And if the Dems can take back the Senate in '06 or '08, the Rethugs, as the new minority, would be bound by the precedent set here.

                I understand some are angry that we didn't fight to a potentially pyrrhic victory, but bigger issues were at stake here.

            •  Follow it through (none)
              You don't have to think ahead very far to see how the repubs will capitalize off of this.
              •  Capitalize on what?? (none)
                They set the standard for the issue -- all 7 judges must be confirmed, no exceptions.

                They didn't get what they wanted and folded because it was uncertain whether they could have gotten what they wanted by fighting to the bitter end.

                Republican moderates finally groped around in the dark long enough and found their cojones.  They saw the Constitutional damage, realized that a fundie win would destroy the moderate wing of the party, and acted to preserve both the rules of the Senate and their role in the body.

                Dobson pitched a hissy fit afterwards.

                They might try to campaign on the judges they managed to get on the bench, but by making the fight so public, they will forever be reminded that they came up short of their own promise.

                There is nothing on which to capitalize.

      •  The enemy within (none)
        This deal empowers centrist republicans to join dems in defeating the wingnuts. This, IMHO, is how we begin to win.

        It is not dems vs repubs, is Americans vs wingnuts, and we need a few moderate republicans to win our country back.

        Los Blogueros Faith-based Alternative Surrealism from Washington, DC

        by chechecule on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:27:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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