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View Diary: Behaving Like a Jew (187 comments)

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  •  I had no idea that 82% of Jewish Americans want (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sydneyluv, sb, corvo, Smoh, mithra, 417els

    Israel and the US to recognize Palestine.

    I learn a lot here.

    "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

    by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 12:48:25 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  according to exit polls (8+ / 0-)
      Fully 82 percent of Jews support a two-state solution that ends the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem if it resulted in all Arab countries establishing full diplomatic ties with Israel. An equal number believe a two-state solution is needed to strengthen Israel security and ensure its Jewish democratic character, and that it is important for America’s national security interests.
      http://www.thejewishweek.com/...

      "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:20:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I should note that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Simplify, mahakali overdrive, sfbob

        this poll was conducted for J Street.

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:22:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh. An abstract "two state solution" at some (6+ / 0-)

        future date that might happen in some fuzzy sort of way.

        Palestinians have no right to self determination, but if every "Arab Country" will just establish diplomatic ties with Israel (occupied Golan Heights?  What occupied Golan Heights?) then maybe go ahead and say they will be allowed to have a state.  If they behave.  

        Not the actual recognition of two states.

        See, the two are completely different things.

        "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

        by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:35:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think a "two-state solution" (4+ / 0-)

          implies two actual states. Yes, that question was phrased in a conditional way. Nothing that says that a majority of Jews believe that "Palestinians have no right to self-determination". What do you think the percentage would be of non-Jewish Americans to the same question? (apart from the large percentage who would answer "don't care")

          "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:40:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is a difference between paying (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, Smoh

            lip service to supporting something at some fuzzy future date under some bizarre set of unrealistic conditions, and actually supporting something.

            I don't suspect that there's any large difference between American Jews and Americans in general on this issue.  I'm not the one who brought the poll to the table.

            A two state solution requires two states.  Those who claim one of those states only deserves recognition "if" don't actually support it at all.

            "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

            by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:47:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I brought up the poll to show the (3+ / 0-)

              evidence for the number that you questioned. I suspect that if they had framed the question to your satisfaction, the number would have been lower, as it has been in other surveys.

              "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

              by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:56:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Setting aside all other issues - (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sydneyluv, corvo, Smoh

                You do understand the difference between "Do you support a two state solution"

                and

                "would you support a two state solution in this rather silly fantasy world we've concocted for purposes of this poll"

                right?

                I'm really not just talking semantics when I say that one cannot simultaneously argue that Palestinians are a people with a right to form a state in their own homeland....and argue that Israel and the US should deny them that right until they agree to a list of conditions.

                My whole point was to point out the difference between supporting a Palestinian right to recognition of their State, and supporting efforts to extort Palestinians by denying them basic civil rights.

                "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:03:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Supporting a Palestinian state (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mithra

                  implies that the US and Israel should recognize that state when it is established. It doesn't necessarily imply that the Palestinians have the right to the recognition of their state before it is established. In order for it to be established, there has to be compromise, and there will be conditions.

                  "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                  by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:10:01 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It has been established. 2/3rds of the world (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sb, corvo, Smoh

                    has recognized it.  It is currently occupied by Israel.

                    "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                    by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:12:52 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Recognition by (4+ / 0-)

                      a majority of countries is only part of what's necessary to establish an actual state. Israel has to end the occupation of the areas that will be part of the state, and there will need to be negotiation about at least some of the existing settlements, regardless of their legality, or lack thereof, in the first place.

                      "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:34:33 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

      •  What about that "if" clause? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        isabelle hayes, corvo, Smoh, letsgetreal
        Fully 82 percent of Jews support a two-state solution that ends the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem if it resulted in all Arab countries establishing full diplomatic ties with Israel.
        Statehood for Palestinians should be recognized as a human right, without conditions, and certainly not dependent on what all Arab countries do with respect to full diplomatic ties with Israel, something not even under the control of Palestinians.

        “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

        by RJDixon74135 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:58:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't see statehood itself as (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kane in CA, mithra

          a human right. It is a mechanism to hopefully protect human rights, but not itself a human right.

          "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 03:04:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  See the link to Zogby's poll below (0+ / 0-)

          It doesn't have that "if" clause.

          I'm not finding a lot of polls conducted otherwise in the U.S. but there's one other that I'm aware of; I just cannot begin to remember it's name, but it was a large poll. If I remember it, I'll repost it. I think it was more like 70%ish.

      •  Here, Zogby did a poll that is similar (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AaronInSanDiego, sfbob, volleyboy1

        And it has feedback from both Jewish Americans and Arab Americans:

        http://peacenow.org/...

        "Despite heightened tensions and the devastation of continued conflicts in the region, solid majorities of Arab Americans and Jewish Americans are united in their desire an end to the occupation and settlements, and for peace through a two-state solution," added James Zogby, President of the Arab American Institute.

        -cut-

        Almost all Jewish Americans (90%) and Arab Americans (96%) believe that Palestinians have a right to live in a secure and independent state of their own.

        So Zogby puts it at 90%. This was in 2007.

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