Skip to main content

View Diary: MSNBC: U.S. policy in Middle East making terrorism strategically smart and nonviolence a "dead end." (38 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  quickly. Please make corrections. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, eXtina, corvo, codairem, AoT

    Palestinian Authority -- the head in West Bank cooperates, is rewarded by increased settlement building. Peaceful protestors are arrested, harrased, killed(?)

    Hasa shoots into Israel, kidnapped a soldier, is rewarded by getting results.

    This is rewarding violence.

    In the discussion afterwards, the down side: the infrastructure destruction in Gaza goes faster. Hayes asks that person, which place would you rather live? He said "West Bank", but insisted that's beside the point.

    A clip of Barak Obama, years back, discussing terrorism as a tactic rather than someone being intrisically a terrorist.

    Deserves a second listen, when I have time.

    The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

    by stargaze on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 10:34:01 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I guess the West Bank would be preferable (8+ / 2-)

      unless it was your home and land that is seized next for an illegal settlement, though, right?

      Sounds interesting and certainly logical.  

      The Israeli RW government also likes to be the "victim" of terrorism (generally ineffective little rockets) because it: 1) gets right wingers elected to government over and over;  2) serves to justify their continued harsh treatment of people they consider less than human; 3) serves to justify the meme that "we can never live with such people" so the settlements must stay (to push the Palestinians out).

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 10:40:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  innefective little rockets? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, JNEREBEL

        Hamas isn't the ME branch of Hobby Lobby handing out celluloid rockets.  

        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

        by Mortifyd on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 10:59:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The rockets are inaccurate and can punch a hole in (7+ / 0-)

          a wall or ceiling, yes, but are not powerful enough to level three or four houses like a single 500 lb bomb dropped by Israeli F16s.  They are not as accurate as Israeli drones and not as powerful as Hellfire missiles fired by drones.

          They are not as effective as tank fire. And few get through the "Iron Dome."

          They are literally "little rockets" in the comparison both of military capabilities and more specifically in the comparison of missiles in various armaments.

          No, they are not firecrackers.  Yes, they could kill someone if they were close enough.  But no, they are not huge destructive weapons they are implied to be on the news.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 11:23:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  but that isn't what "home made rocket" implies (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1

            to people who are familiar with hobby shop type toys and not munitions - ie people who live in the west.  They are weapons.  Not the biggest or the baddest, but they are STILL weapons and not toys.

            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

            by Mortifyd on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 01:28:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did I say "home made rocket?" (5+ / 0-)

              I'm not making up "ineffective" on my own:

              In 2006, the Israeli Ministry of Defense viewed the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat.:"

              “Clearly everyone wants to be surrounded by concrete block, but we need to remember that Qassams are more a psychological than physical threat. Statistically they cause the fewest losses, and therefore we must develop prevention systems but not invest all the money in this aspect.”

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 02:17:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Their lack of accuracy make them even more of (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, livosh1

            a terrorist attack. The rocket attacks are war crimes as they are fired into civilian areas and kill and injure  civilians.

            Your effort to de-emphasize these terror acts is reprehensible.

      •  Please source the accusation (0+ / 0-)

        That Israel actively takes Palestinians' homes when settlements are expanded.

        There is a difference between that and the (more common, sometimes accurate) accusation that settlements have been built on land that was owned by Palestinians pre-1967 but which they abandoned or were kicked out of during/immediately after that war.

        Israel took an old Turkish rule about building on uncultivated, unsettled land and used it as a justification for Settlement building.

        Here is what you wrote:

        unless it was your home and land that is seized next for an illegal settlement, though, right?
        Again, please provide a source that this is happening today.

        If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
        If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
        If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

        by A Gutin Daf on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 04:00:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, is the Israeli Supreme Court sufficient? (7+ / 0-)
          Migron among largest outposts
          Built in 2001 by ultranationalist Israelis just 10 miles north of Jerusalem, Migron is among the largest outposts, and was widely seen as a symbol of the government's refusal or inability to confront the powerful settler lobby.

          Last year, Israel's Supreme Court determined the outpost was built on private Palestinian land and must be dismantled, but petitions by the government and settlers delayed the pullout until now. After approving several delays in recent months, the Supreme Court last week set Tuesday as the final deadline.

          Not "abandoned" but "private Palestinian land," meaning the land had owners but was seized and built upon anyway.
          "I am talking about Thou Shalt Not steal.  What is more basic than that?'' adds [Israeli attorney] Sfard, who attributes his work on behalf of Palestinians partly to his knowledge of what Jews suffered historically as a persecuted minority. ''I have an allergy to situations where the strong, the majority is exploiting and maltreating the weak, the minority,'' he explains.

          Court holding firm

          The hearing on Ulpana was held after attorney-general Yehuda Weinstein backed away from a state commitment a year ago, that was enshrined as a supreme court ruling, to demolish 30 settler apartments for being built on private Palestinian property.
          ...

          Harbi Hasan, a Palestinian landowner on whose property the settler buildings in Ulpana – or Jebel Artis, as it is known in Arabic –  were constructed, praises his Israeli lawyer for doing ''an excellent job.'' Hasan, 71, who grew up in the village of Dura al-Qara and recalls his family growing grapes on the land on which the settlers built, says: "From Dura, I can see the buildings of the settlers on my land. Just imagine the feeling. Getting it back will mean everything.''

          Or Haaretz:
          Security forces are due to demolish a structure in Mitzphe Yitzhar, another of Yitzhar's "satellite" outposts. A High Court of Justice ruling determined that the home, built on private Palestinian land, would be evacuated according to operational considerations.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 06:25:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Also what's happening in East Jerusalem. (4+ / 0-)

            or Susiya.  See also this from Haaretz.  

            •  Interesting. That's from Feb 2012 and includes: (4+ / 0-)
              Family members, who are being represented by Rabbis for Human Rights, say the settlers use threats and violence to keep them from their land and have even shot at them. The family says the Israeli security forces are not enforcing the law and the Civil Administration is not protecting the family's right to the land, even though it is in Area B.
              and:
              In many cases, the report says, Palestinians leave their communities because of violence by settlers, demolition of houses and difficulty in accessing services and resources.

              During the first six months of 2011, the UN agency documented 342 demolitions of Palestinian-owned structures, including 125 residential structures. This is almost five times the number of structures demolished during the same period in 2010. The number of people displaced also increased by around five times during the same period.

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 07:47:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  The language of your post was unclear (0+ / 0-)

            usually when the phrase "illegal settlement" appears it is a reference to the entire concept of the settlements in the West Bank.

            Here you have a genuinely illegal settlement - and a successful court case to defeat that settlement.

            There is a group on the extreme right of the settler movement in Israel that is happy to steal land. There is no question that the Israeli government should be doing more to stop this. At the same time, this situation is relatively uncommon as a percentage of the total area taken up by the settlements themselves.

            Also - this is why its important in a democracy to have an independent court system.

            If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
            If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
            If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

            by A Gutin Daf on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 04:46:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  HR'd (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, JNEREBEL

        for saying Israel actually "likes" being the victim of terrorism.

        Beyond the pale.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site