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View Diary: FRAMESHOP | Begun, this Frame War has [UPDATED] (128 comments)

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  •  I really don't like "standing" (none)
    as a metaphor. It's too passive. Standing for, standing with, whatever, it's just standing there.

    I recall an earlier Frameshop in which you proposed "standing together against tragedy" as an alternative to "war on terror." I didn't care much for that either. I preferred reader smallbottle's suggestion: "the hunt for al-Qaeda." Hunting is active. Standing is passive.

    These are great discussions, but I think "standing" has got to go.

    Godwin's Law has been suspended until further notice.

    by Utah for Dean on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:14:02 AM PDT

    •  How about (none)
      "The Senate hunts down the people"?

      ; )

      (I hear you; "stand" does seem a little passive)

      •  Thinking out loud... (none)
        The problem is that the GOP has cleverly taken the central action in the Senate -- voting -- and reframed it to support their side (as an up or down vote). Maybe we need to be talking about a broad-consensus vote instead? Something that incorporates the supermajority required for bipartisan support, but without the Senate jargon.

        Godwin's Law has been suspended until further notice.

        by Utah for Dean on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:30:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But the Senate deliberates... (none)
          ...long before it votes.

          It's the deliberation which is more abstract and more confusing, as in, "Sure everyone knows Senators  vote on stuff... but what happens before they vote?"

          That "before they vote" is what we need to decipher and frame because that's where progressives' current strength is (as a minority party).

          How about: "Advice and consent doesn't mean "rubber stamp", it means think before you vote."

          -- I think that's pretty open to most folks to understand, but it's long.

          (Stream of conscious here....) maybe "Senators must think before they vote" is all we need... Tack on "And Senators must stand with the people rather than bowing to the President"...

          •  Deliberation vs. voting (none)
            I considered the deliberation vs. voting focus too. I think it's more important to focus on the voting for two reasons.

            First, that's the ground that the Rs have claimed, and they tend to choose the best spot on the map, so to speak. If they think that reframing the voting itself is the best way to get what they want, then my instinct is to deny them that.

            Second, Frist offered to give the Dems 100 (?) hours of debate on these nominees and then put them through an up-or-down vote at the end of it anyway. So the debate really isn't what's important here, but the voting. I also think that a broad-consensus vote implies that there's been enough debate to get both sides to a point of agreement.

            So if the Rs have staked out the idea that these nominees deserve an up-or-down vote, I would counter with these nominees require a broad-based, bipartisan vote.

            Godwin's Law has been suspended until further notice.

            by Utah for Dean on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:36:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree, but with an amend... (none)
              I would counter with these nominees require a broad-based, bipartisan vote.

              How 'bout: "Any president's nominees ought to be able to attain a broad-based, bipartisan vote representative of the Americans they'll be judiciating for life."

              Or somesuch...

              I think the keys to improving what you state are to truly make it bipartisan ("any president's") and to include reference to mainstream America ("representative of the Americans"). There may be a better, simpler, faster, shorter way of saying this.

    •  I understand what you are saying (none)
      But my first inner vision was that it was with the people as in supporting them, rather than taking over or putting words in their mouths. It gives a feeling of solidarity and companionship.

      It's a secure feeling, like the Senate has my back or is going to fight with me as opposed to deciding what I want to fight about.

      But, I am a woman so might feel that more.

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