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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: Of fiscal cliffs and cliff diving (92 comments)

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  •  King -- disaster is where you find it. (5+ / 0-)

    Overall, I can't argue to much with King's characterization of the so-called fiscal cliff.

    But...

    His characterization of flat economic growth as not a bad thing is way off base.

    Never mind that increasing population means that flat growth is actually taking a step backward, but...

    these are not good times.

    We have millions of people who have been out of work for a very long time.  We have millions more who can't find work at all or settle for part-time work when they want full-time.
    We have an untold number that we don't even measuer: those who could and should have decent jobs based on their skills, experience, talent, and desire, but cannot get them.

    For all of those folks, flat economic growth is a disaster.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 05:27:05 AM PST

    •  to be avoided (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skohayes, askew

      but not to be avoided with a bad deal. I take his point as "we can live with it for a month while we let the tax cuts expire and work to reinstate the <250K cuts."

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 05:36:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The hubris of the bright-minded (0+ / 0-)

        Kind of like Obama's "stimulus" package.

        What the heck -- it's not the rich and powerful feeling the real pain.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 05:40:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  not what we want (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skohayes

          but see Lincoln (the movie), dino, in terms of getting stuff done. Better to just fix it now, but if the GOP refuses, going over the cliff forces wealthy taxes to go up desuite the obstruction (see graph, top of post). Fix the less wealthy tax issue in a week and you won't even notice it. And it will get fixed, because GOP will take the blame (thank you, polls... it is a fact).

          Bitching about it is misplaced, unless you want to bitch about obstructionist republicans, because, and I say it slow: They. Are. The. Problem.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 05:47:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Ps the stimulus helped (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ratcityreprobate, skohayes, askew

          and ACA saves money.

          What you claim is wrong. Still.

          But now a part of the fabric of discussion.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 05:48:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, I can count on your to regurgitate the party (0+ / 0-)

            line.

            That's fine. Loyalty is a good thing, not bad.

            But -- we shall see on the ACA.
            If there isn't some re-working, it is going to dump an awful lot of people into federally subsidized insurance and those employer penalties aren't high enought to:

            1) prevent it, or
            2) pay for it

            Have you actually read the CBO report?

            They estimate that 4-6 million people will lose employer-funded insurance because of ACA.

            I would that a lovely result, but that's because we're only talking about 3% of the workforce or so.  I expect the numbers to be much, much higher given the ever-increasing cost of insurance and the fact that subsidies remain available until you exceed 400% of the federal poverty line -- which comes, btw, to about $90,000 in a country where the median family income is about $53,000.  The vast majority of Americans will qualify for subsidies and employers will end up with little choice but to compete with those who take the leap.

            The same report, btw, estimates that cost at about $9,000 per person who hits the federal exchange.  50% more than Medicaid.  And, btw, a big hunk of that proposed savings comes on the backs of people who are forced off of Medicaid but do not go onto the exchanges for replacement coverage.  

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 06:25:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have written before that progresssives (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              One Opinion

              especially in the Senate, after filibuster reform :), should put good bills on the floor in rapid succession and the first one up should be a bill phasing in Medicare for all.

              "Lets show the rascals what Citizens United really means."

              by smiley7 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 06:38:58 AM PST

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              •  Please -- not that. I'm close enough to medicare (0+ / 0-)

                age now, and it terrifies me when I see what my older relatives are going through.

                Medicare was OK for its first twenty years or so, but so was American health care.  Medicare suffers now because it pays poorly in a system that demands a fortune from everyone.

                Instead of Medicare, let's get some sustainable care.

                Use military health care as a model.
                Use the Mayo clinic as a model.

                Anything but the festering pisshole that is the current state of American health care, and the system into which Medicare tries to fit.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 06:44:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not perfect but your experience seems to be at (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  One Opinion

                  odds with the majority of present Medicare recipients.
                  This is s path to Single Payer.
                  I remember a USA expo on the wonderful work of Vet care around 1998-99, it was delivering healthcare with surprising low cost, very efficient. But Bush happened.
                  The average Medicare per patient cost in the Mayo Clinic region of the country is around $6,000 per year I recall while in Texas the per patient cost is close to $15,000 per year.
                  So I agree that improvements are in order, but we must move to a single payer model or continue throwing resources into the wind of profits by insurance and medical suppliers.

                  "Lets show the rascals what Citizens United really means."

                  by smiley7 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 07:01:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  And meanwhile wages for those (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dinotrac

      lucky enough to be employed at all are going down.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 06:17:32 AM PST

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      •  Yes they are. It's a nasty place out there (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SueDe

        for a whole lot of people.

        But we avoided a depression, right.

        Wait -- hold on -- I can't say that.

        My family and I have not avoided a depression.

        I guess "they" avoided a depression.

        Whoever they are.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 06:46:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Paul Krugman lays out this conundrum (0+ / 0-)

          handily in his new(ish) book, End This Depreesion NOW!  Whatever economists say about when the recession began or when it ended, regular folks are experiencing a real depression, the effects of which are wholly preventable.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 01:46:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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