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View Diary: Through the Looking Glass: Freeperville (324 comments)

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  •  I browse freeperville regularly (4.00)
    Although I don't post.  It's similar to dKos, but also different. More hostile, for one thing.  There is a lot more anger.  If someone says something even remotely against the party line, they get accused of trolling very quickly.  They like to eat their own young. But I do sometimes find stories that aren't here.  Watch out, though, it's not all true. I read some unpleasant things about Paul Krugman the other day, and it led me to an internet search about his veracity. There are a LOT of right wing sites tearing him down, but most of what you read there is nonsense.  But now I'm wondering if Krugman isn't biased.  It works that way.  As a liberal, I am always willing to challenge my beliefs, so it's easy for the right to feed my doubts.  It's good to allow your belief's to be challenged, but the right uses a lot of logical fallacies and often outright lies to do it, so I have to be careful what I believe.  
    •  Exactly. (4.00)
      I lurk at Freeperville on a regular basis.  There are HUGE differences:

      1. Outright lies, consistent with the progressive viewpoint or not, are flamed here almost instantly.  There's not much of a chance that a diary posted here containing egregious lies coupled with progressive talking points would survive the comments section.  The same is definitely not true of freerepublic.  

      2. Opinions based on nothing more than inherent bigotry are similarly flamed.  I can't begin to count how many freeper entries and comments openly embrace bigoted sentiment, such as the natural illegitimacy of Islam or homosexuality.  Many times, these comments escape deletion by the moderator or disapproval by other commenters.

      3. There is much more party introspection here than at freerepublic.  This week, we've seen front page diaries about the Democratic tendency to score candidates based on wedge issues rather than overall embrasure of a progressive platform.  I have seen little attempt at real party introspection at freerepublic.  Party discussions seem to boil down to "the RINOs will pay," or "not another cent of my money if Terri dies."

      That said, the diarist is correct in pointing out that (1) it is beneficial to understand the viewpoints of the GOP, particularly determining their wedge issues (immigration, immigration, immigration); and (2) we need to understand that our dialogue and discourse is not mainstream, and thus, we need to contextualize things to others that we might not need to contextualize here, such as the unacceptability of Santorum and Frist.
      •  question (4.00)
        it is beneficial to understand the viewpoints of the GOP

        That is true. I just wonder if Freepie represent anything to the GOP apart from the shock troops they'll send in whenever they need to stage a rally in Florida to stop the votes from being counted.

        Freepie are the ones chanting "hey hey, ho ho, Social Security has got to go!" That only represents the GOP's heart of darkness.

        •  That's a really good point (4.00)
          But I've come to wonder whether freeperville represents the true conservative agenda without its fancy PC trappings: anger, selfishness, fear of modernity and loss of American dominance, heavy sprinklings of racism and misogyny, and the desire to see Christianity as the exclusive world religion.

          Other, more articulate and perhaps seemingly moderate sites seem to hint at the same things, yet in more palatable packaging.

          •  One Quibble (4.00)

             What those people espouse as "Christianity" is not in line with the teachings of Jesus.  As you noted, "anger, selfishness, [jingoism]. . . racism, misogyny," are NOT Christian values.

             The bumper sticker for '06 and '08 needs to be:

             Read the Beatitudes
                 before you vote.


            . . . religion is not a syllogism, but a poem. H.L. Mencken

            by BenGoshi on Tue May 24, 2005 at 08:56:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What's Really Important to Understand... (4.00)
 tomorrow's GOP talkingpoints today. Never being surprised by the particular kind of feces they're planning to fling is a good starting point of a defense.

          I don't spend a lot of time on the right side of the blogosphere (my time and sanity is too precious), but my sense it that these websites are among the petrie dishes in which the right's future memes germinate. And that's definitely worth paying attention to (though I have no desire to wade through this muck myself).

          "Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups." -- John Kenneth Galbraith

          by GreenSooner on Tue May 24, 2005 at 08:35:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I spent a couple of hours (4.00)
        posting on FR last night.

        Yes I have an account there, and post regularly.

        I am absolutely positive they have no idea I am not one of them.

        I don't make obvious blunders like most of the trolls that come here attempting to pose as Dems.

        It is hard to resist blurting out the truth among the out and out lies that so frequently get accepted as truth over there--like last night some idiot kept saying that "all Clinton's judges got up or down votes" and I had to resist the temptation not to blow my cover.

        They were livid last night.  You could feel the blood vessels bursting through the monitor.  Many claim to be ready to abandon the Republican party, giving neither money nor volunteer time nor votes, even if means we win!  Some even said crazy things like they would vote for Hillary (known over there as Hitlery, among other pet names) over McCain or Frist!

        Needless to say if the extremists take their bat and ball and go home (or to a third party candidate) we win huge in '06 and '08.

        It is wonderful practice for being out in the world and talking with freepers F2F.  I am getting better at sounding like them and blending in my uses of language with theirs.

        diary whore: my interview skills diary about the nuclear option is quickly dropping off to bit heaven.  I hope some of you will give it a read.

        Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:19:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK.. (none)
          I'm guessing from this comment that you attempt, very subtly, to do some good for progressives over there without getting noticed. How do you do it, and do you think you've accomplished anything?

          I've thought about this from time to time, but for one thing, I don't have the stomach for it, and for another, I don't post enough here or other sites I do agree with because I just don't feel like I've got much to add to the discussion, let alone places like that.

        •  Thats why (none)
          No offense, but that's why I don't buy Free Republic as a republican site. When I read the comments they seem so outlandish that it has to be dare I say it "democratic progaganda". I don't know for sure, but it just seems off that they would pledge no more money for every single little Republican dreamed up PR crisis. Seems there would be a little more loyalty there being as how the Republican party has adopted they fascist agenda?

          Maybe not, maybe they're just all idiots, it's completly plausible, but seems like it could just be a good bunch of us troopers trying to make a difference. I don't post there, but I thought about it and it seemed like a pretty good idea. If moderate republicans come to those sites as the leading Republican blogs, it may turn them off, because they're nimwits over there.

      •  I mostly agree, but ... (4.00)
        on your point that outright lies don't survive, I have to disagree. About 2 weeks ago, Kos made the utterly, demonstrably false claim that Kerry used to support gay marriage but then switched his position. I and a tiny handful of others posted comment after comment pointing out that this was false, but we were drowned out in the torrent of "spineless-flipflopper"-type comments that ensued.

        Kos also twice came to within a hair's breadth of claiming (falsely) that Kerry has labeled himself "an outsider." Each time, a handful of people screamed about the distortions, but mostly people seemed to buy it.

        I don't know if Kos's claims were lies or simply mistakes, but they were never corrected. They're clearly an example of a disturbing lack of concern for truth, and apparently that kind of shoddy disregard for the facts is acceptable to a certain segment of the people here so long as the target is Kerry.  

        I agree that the percentage of falsehoods and distortions on this blog seems to be much lower than in Freeperville, but the idea that this community will actively challenge all untruths  isn't quite true. Yes, a small number of us tried. But I didn't get the impression that very many people heard us.

        •  I think that we are as subject to the... (none)
          media machine as anybody else in America.  We are saturated in it, and sometimes we start to believe things that aren't true.  But at least you can point out the errors here without getting kicked off the site, even if people don't always embrace your correction.  That's a good thing.  
      •  this all rings very true (none)
        My impression is of a significant differential in higher-level thinking skills.
    •  Look again in the mirror (4.00)
      There is a lot more anger.  If someone says something even remotely against the party line, they get accused of trolling very quickly.  They like to eat their own young.

      Look at any front page stories on dKos where abortion is mentioned.  Try the posts that criticize NARAL for being a one-issue special interest and see who eats their young.

      Try criticizing Howard Dean and see your hard-won mojo melt away.  You can always post an elegy to Howard to win some back, but be sure to curse Bush and the Republicans and the cat-killer and the bug-man.  THe perfect correlation between Deanlove and mojo has weakened since the height of the frenzy in winter 03/04.

      On both dKos and freerepublic you regularly see the obligatory outrage: "That's it! I won't give one more dollar to __!" or "That's it! I am NOT [watching/reading] any more [CBS/Newsweek]!" Just makes me laugh.

      •  I see a lot of arguments (4.00)
        REAL arguments.  I myself engaged in a prolonged argument with several commenters about the significance of the Confederate flag.  

        I've pointed out elsewhere that there is not an informational symmetry between the progressive and conservative movements, as the last PIPA report stunningly illustrated.

        Sure, there's some knee-jerking here, threats of boycott, and common foes.

        But the very fact that there WERE diaries about NARAL, about pro-life Democrats, about the suitability of the Pope show that there is some introspection here and that the majority of posters won't toe what they perceive to be a party line if they personally disagree.  

        •  okay (4.00)
          I disagreed with you, posted, read your reply, and now I accept your arguments and agree that we're not just a screaming nasty echochamber.  Touche.

          Of course, I have not seen enough of free republic or lgf to know civilized they can be. What I've been able to stomach is not encouraging though.  Maybe they need a guest pass program!

      •  It really isn't the same (4.00)
        The closest I've seen dKos come to freeperville was a diary last week about a conservative leader's former wife accusing him of sodomizing her against her will.  That was pretty hateful, and I spoke out against it. The regular arguments that go on here, even the ones about gay marriage and abortion, are nothing compared to the typical arguments over there. For one thing, most people at dKos recognize that there are two sides to the argument. We try to convince others that our side is right.  Over there, there is some of that, but a lot of it degenerates into name-calling and liberal bashing early on.  

        But the real difference is that if someone over here says something hateful, others will jump all over them for doing so and not fear administrative retribution.  Markos pretty much lets us work out our differences.  At free republic, they have actie moderators and people who go too far are simply purged, quickly and cleanly, at the hands of an administrator who does not need to fear retribution. If I troll rate somebody wrongly, there is a good chance I'm going to be rated down in turn.  They have no such feedback.  

    •  Used to ... (none)
      browse frequently.  Especially during the campaign season.

      Unlike you, I found it of value to post.  I have a large number of user names -- for example, I use B3 only here and Washington Monthly.  

      In Freeperville, I use more 'acceptable' user names and attempt to post in somewhat neutral terms when I see opportunities to call something into question, offer a (slightly) alternative voice to try to moderate or shift (ever so slightly) the discussion.  My user names are 'honest' as are my postings -- don't try to hide myself as a Bush supporter but don't go out of my way to state that I am more comfortable on dKos.  Sometimes -- once in a long while -- seems like I help someone think at least a little in a reality-based frame ...

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