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View Diary: Israel expands settler homes by 3,000 after pro-Palestine UN Vote (53 comments)

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  •  Israel has been a colonial project from day 1. eom (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lepanto, bluedust

    The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

    by Wolf10 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 04:17:05 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  That's a really complicated issue (5+ / 0-)

      and I have to somewhat disagree because there was already a longstanding Jewish presence in the region which was relatively peacefully coeexistant with other ethnicities there. Other than some American Leftist, one of the few who claims that Israel is implicitly colonial are a small, far-right group of Israeli Jews whose views are (in my mind) pretty specious.

      Also, the notion of any indigenous people is a bit colonial in its own right because it presupposes that there were ever a pure and pristine time when tribes or nations weren't already in constant flux over boundaries and borders. The establishment of nation-states which "belong" to a group of people is a relatively new line of thinking.

      For me, I feel that we must not continue colonial cycles now, as our sensitivity to the problems of war and occupation (physical or economic) has expanded dramatically. It was not "wrong" to create an "Israel." It was pretty successful. And if there had been follow-up to the original plan, which was a creation of a Palestine too, we wouldn't be questioning the legitimacy of Israel at all. That's a slippery slope best to be avoided. Hamas has obviously taken it to an extreme with their charter. Sometimes our anger at the Israeli Government's quasi-apartheid system may cause us to want to "unrecognize" them, but you know, this is a nation filled with diverse people, a majority of whom don't support the current arrangement but who are proud of their nations (not to promote awkward patriotisms; I'm not so great at this one).

      "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

      by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:16:23 PM PST

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      •  If as is so often the case, the Holocaust and (0+ / 0-)

        other crimes against Jews committed predominantly by Europeans, is a reasonable rationale for the creation of a Jewish state, then why not create that state from lands of the oppressors as opposed to the lands of innocent bystanders?

        While it may be impossible to ever completely right the wrong done to the Palestinians, nor to European Jewry for that matter, but we should not pretend that Israel possesses a right to exist where it exists based on moral principle.

        The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

        by Wolf10 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:47:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Israel has a right to exist (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OllieGarkey, debedb, Brecht

          There's a problematic issue with saying otherwise. Just like it's troubling to say Palestine has no right to exist. Both exist. Both have a right to exist. Ignoring anyone's right to exist sets a terrible precedent all around. Everyone has a right to exist when they... exist. They do not, however, have a right to keep anyone else from either existing or doing so productively and happily.

          "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:13:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think you are conflating states and people. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lepanto, mahakali overdrive

            Your comment starts with "Israel" and "Palestine" and swiches to "Everyone."

            States don't actually have a "right" to exist. They either do or they don't exist.

            And I can't recall any other state but Israel demanding that other entities recognise its "right to exist." That's  a bizare formulation. The usual request is a simple request for recognition.

            The only thing standing between you and your dreams is insomnia.

            by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:42:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What other country has had its right (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OllieGarkey, Brecht, johnny wurster

              to exist disputed? I believe that's where this is coming from. By "everyone" I meant "every nation" or something to that effect.

              I presume we're on the same side of this issue, so I hope you will listen to me in good faith and recognize that my aim isn't to be contentious but rather conscientious. Again, denying the existence of a nation which does have UN status and which does actually exist sets a dangerous precedent, particularly when singling any one out to continuously legitimize its existence.

              I recognize Palestine's right to exist, for example.

              I recognize the right for various trouble-ridden nations to exist as well. Somalia, for example, exists. Syria exists. Iraq exists. South Sudan, which is a very recent creation, exists. North Korea exists.

              We don't usually question the "right" of any of these nations to exist. So why do we question the right of Israel to "exist"? It's a bit of a moot question. It does exist, factually, and refusing to recognize that is to ontologically and existentially denigrate its citizens, period. I won't see that done to any people on this planet. Not Palestine. Not Israel. Not South Sudan. Not South Africa. Not Libya. No Nation, even a troubled one, should have its very existence questioned because that opens the door to legitimize dehumanization of its populace. If a country ceases to exist, such as Tanganyika, it will be duly noted in all of the history books as a factual incident. Otherwise, it looks like wish-fulfillment of a troubling sort.

              "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

              by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 09:12:11 PM PST

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              •  I am listening to you in good faith. Stand down! (0+ / 0-)

                I'm just getting to know you on this issue, so I'm making comments/statements (I guess they should really be questions) to get more info.

                The only thing standing between you and your dreams is insomnia.

                by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 10:07:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  it is a response to those who believe that it does (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive

              NOT have a right to exist.  Other than that, I would tend to agree with you.

          •  You completely side-stepped the issue I raised (0+ / 0-)

            as to a moral principle which one might invoke that would allow one to characterize modern Israel anything other than a foreign conquest and occupation of other people's land.

            To equate Israeli claims with those of Palestinians is rationally absurd, morally indefensible.

            As to U.S. security and national interests, the subsidizing and defense of this imperial outpost is becoming ever more counterproductive and dangerous.

            The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

            by Wolf10 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 07:41:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  this is (5+ / 0-)

      quite funny.

      First off, most countries with which you're acquainted are, in large part, 'colonial projects'.  Places like, oh, say, the U.S.  Canada.  Brazil.  French Guiana.  Mexico.  Tons of states can trace in their origins some migration/movement and, some displacement.  

      phone call...but more to come....

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