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View Diary: How the US Military Tortured Bradley Manning (227 comments)

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  •  It's a disgrace to all good Democrats (44+ / 0-)

    that we would have a president who engages in these kinds of human rights violations against our own citizens.

    On military issues, Obama has more in common with Nixon and LBJ than with Carter or FDR.

    Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

    by Betty Pinson on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 11:31:16 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  oh, comeon Betty. what would you do without Obama? (1+ / 2-)
      Recommended by:
      Bizzerkeley
      Hidden by:
      Calidrissp, Nag

      you'd be like Professor Moriarty without Sherlock Holmes.  you THINK you would be happier without Obama, but what good is all of your self righteous anger if you don't have a truly good person in politics to demonize?  deep down in your heart... you love Obama.  you love him.  he completes you.

      but anyway, to the issue, which is not how disgraceful democrats are for voting to re-election Obama, being in military prison is not supposed to feel good.  conflating life in military prison to being tortured is ridiculous.  

      •  Snark right? (37+ / 0-)
        if you don't have a truly good person in politics to demonize
        being in military prison is not supposed to feel good.  conflating life in military prison to being tortured is ridiculous.
        Who needs to conflate anything here? Manning has been tortured while in a military prison.

        It's clear to all of us.

        You may not like that reality but we must accept that it is happening as we speak.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:32:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ignorance is bliss (37+ / 0-)

        You must be one happy guy.

        The former commander at Quantico warned the Pentagon that Manning's  extended detention there was inappropriate.

        Your sneering, soulless implication that Manning's detention was par for the course is belied by the military psychiatrist's testimony in Manning's pre-trial hearing:

        The psychiatrist who treated the WikiLeaks suspect, Bradley Manning, while he was in custody in the brig at Quantico has testified that his medical advice was regularly ignored by marine commanders who continued to impose harsh conditions on the soldier even though he posed no risk of suicide.

        Captain William Hoctor told Manning's pre-trial hearing at Fort Meade that he grew frustrated and angry at the persistent refusal by marine officers to take on board his medical recommendations. The forensic psychiatrist said that he had never experienced such an unreceptive response from his military colleagues, not even when he treated terrorist suspects held at Guantanamo.

        People who have to distort the truth and who are unable to feel empathy should seek professional help before they harm themselves or others.
        •  i disgree that bad treatement in prison is torture (9+ / 0-)

          if you want to talk about how Manning is being treated badly, then i'm happy to talk about it.  but saying that he's being tortured is just about trying to turn him into some kind of martyr for the cause.  which is, in my judgment, not only dishonest, but also hurts the cause, because it's so unbelievably outrageous that it turns people off.

          this is what you guys do every fucking time.  you try to turn everything into something so shockingly extreme and horrific to try to get attention.  like people won't give a shit about it unless it's the worst thing ever.  if it bleeds it leads, right?  can't just say what's happening, have to sensationalize it.  

          and when people who are honest don't jump on your bandwagon, it must be because they are ignorant or don't care or want people to get hurt cause they are evil or something.  how about it's because you scream so fucking loud about every fucking thing that you are the boy who cried wolf?

          but anyway, proceed to ignore what i said and keep screaming.  keep letting the fact that you can't get people to side with you convince you that people are fuckers.  

          •  This ISN'T about "getting attention"! (13+ / 0-)

            Who are "you guys"????

            You're afraid speaking the truth "will turn people off"???

            I'm simply flabbergasted!

            Bradley Manning: a tale of liberty lost in America

            This isn't some popularity contest. These actions threaten every single American.

            Under the guise of "national security" their crimes will be forever hidden from us, dare not anyone speak of them or you'll be tortured and whisked away.

            Bradley Manning IS being tortured for telling us of the war crimes that have been committed in our name!

            While the truly guilty go free.  It is contemptible and when the people lose respect for law, there is no law and civil society breaks down.

            It's that simple!

            What is occurring today IS a betrayal of everything I've always believed made me a Democrat! EVERYTHING!

            I hope you have a hour to watch and listen to one of the most outspoken Constitutional Lawyers of our time.  Listen to this conversation and then get back to us.  

            Tell us again that we "might turn people off" or that "we're hurting the cause!"

            I'd seriously love to know what "cause" it is you stand for here?

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 05:58:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you guys refers to everyone who is screaming (2+ / 4-)
              Recommended by:
              vcmvo2, Avila
              Hidden by:
              snoopydawg, BradyB, Nag, Brown Thrasher

              that Obama is torturing Manning.  it's as fucking outrageous as claiming Obama was born in Kenya.  

              but you guys are as lost in your true believer bubble as the tea baggers are lost in theirs.  

              and just like the tea baggers, you kind of scare me, because there's always on of you guys who wants to kill people (see the guy who wants to Hang the Bush administration above).

              •  Wow, such dishonesty and false logic... (11+ / 0-)

                You equate anyone telling the truth to "birthers" and teabaggers!

                INSULTING!

                So, when you don't have a legitimate excuse you go for the ad hominem attacks.

                Didn't Meteor Blades suggest you present your points without insults???

                The actions of our gov't, headed by President Obama are unacceptable. He alone has the ultimate authority on the detainment & treatment of our Military personnel.

                No one here said Obama was personally torturing Manning, you just did.  President Obama coulda, shoulda, woulda put a stop the torturous conditions an innocent man is being forced to endure.

                And he is innocent until proven guilty in the nation!

                So, will you answer my question or are you going to continue the personal smears???

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 09:51:08 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  i'm not insulting i'm telling the truth (15+ / 0-)

                  there are people here calling Obama a torturer and a murderer and a terrorist.  read the fucking comments.  

                  calling bad conditions torture is not only just plain wrong and stupid, but it's disgusting since there are people who actually have been tortured and you spoiled brats, who don't even know what being harmed is like, call being in prison torture.  what the fuck ever.  talk to someone who's been tortured and then fucking call being in prison torture.  

                  torturous conditions.  what the fuck are you talking about.  do you want to know what torturous conditions are?  i'll tell you from personal experience.  my brother and i suffered from such extreme severe neglect from the time we were born that when we were taken away into foster care that my older brother who was 3 1/2 couldn't speak and didn't acknowledge the presence of other humans (other than me) and i was so traumatized that when i was picked up and held in someone arms i screamed at the top of my lungs like i was being beaten... until i finally wrapped my arms around their neck so tight i choked them.  i was 13 months old.  

                  that was followed by my brother being leashed to a tree in the back yard like a dog by one foster home.  the nice foster home.  the mean foster home is where he lost a quarter of one of his thumbs and had his face smashed into a sink and broke off a chunk of one of his front teeth.  where i was kicked all the way down stairs.  where we were both grabbed by our hair and lifted up into the air to be beaten with an inch thick stick while the foster mom screamed like she was out of her fucking mind and it was usually over losing a sock or not flushing the toilet.  first the hits were in the ass and then the legs and then the arms and then the head and then the face.  and then came the punches and the kicks.  and for the finale... being told to pick up the phone and dial 911 so the police could come and they would have us put in mental institutions or on the street to live homeless because our real parents were insane and everyone would believe that we were too if we told what was going on.  

                  being adopted by that foster home is torturous conditions.  spending until you are 30, like my brother did, living there because they lie and say they have power of attorney and they take all your money while you live in the storage room in the basement.  until you scream in the front yard for help from neighbors and you are sent to live with your brother (me).  and you are as skinny as someone in a picture from the holocaust.  and you cower when someone touches you or addresses you.

                  that's fucking torture.  and i haven't told you about my sister who was horse whipped in a foster home and raped in another.  that's fucking torture.

                  manning is in military prison for handing over classified information to a foreigner.  lucky for his stupid ass it was mostly just embarrassing and our country could mend fences.  was he trying to do good?  i want to believe that he was.  was he a stupid mother fucker who obviously had no clue that he was in for a world of hurt for committing treason?  hell yes.  

                  is it hell to be in prison?  that's what i hear.  is what he's going through torture?  not even fucking close.  it makes me angry that you guys are so fucking insensitive to people who have actually suffered in this life that you would call what manning is going through torture.  it just shows how fucking know nothing you all are.  how this is just a bullshit hobby for you.  how you don't know what suffering even fucking is.  but you lecture people like you know something.  it's fucking insulting.  it's like Mrs Romney lecturing minorities about how they should vote.  you don't know what you are fucking talking about.

                  it makes me sick to see how manning is being used as a pawn by people who don't even really care about him.  but he's a focal point they can try to use to further their agenda.  and it's so fucking transparent.  it makes me sick.  and it's mostly being done by people who are just fucking around on the internet instead of getting back to work because fighting about politics is more fun than working.  it pisses me off.

                  but, yeah, please all of you who know jack shit nothing about what you are talking about.  lecture me about torture, assholes.

                  •  you know what (15+ / 0-)

                    why am i even letting this shit get to me.  it's a good thing that most of you are all so removed from suffering that you can't tell the difference between one degree of suffering and another.  fuck, it's a good thing that you don't want suffering to any degree.  you all mean well here.  that's good.  like The Help film.  

                  •  Sorry for the late response, had to work. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    slatsg

                    How about you stop assuming and take a moment to read this old diary of mine?

                    The Murder of Nancy Schaefer & CPS

                    I FEEL HONORED AND BLESSED, DESPITE MY PERSONAL ORDEAL...  

                    FOR I LIVED!

                    Would it make a difference for you to know that I have a sibling that doesn't exist any longer?

                    Would it!?

                    Would it make a difference for you to know all the horrid details of my life and the life of my surviving siblings?

                    Would it!?

                    There are many of us survivors here on DK, many have yet to tell their story, many more that still can't accept what they experienced, even more that still suffer from the effects of their very own hell on earth.

                    Check your DK mail, I've sent you my personal email.

                    Maybe when you've calmed down and stop lashing out, you and I could have a legitimate conversation about the facts here???

                    Maybe then you'd realize that there is a difference.  

                    A difference that threatens us all.  

                    What we are witnessing is the expansion AND institutionalization of sadistic evil in the name of "National Security" knowingly perpetrated AND encouraged by our elected officials.

                    You need to stop using your definition of torture.

                    United Nations Convention Against Torture

                       Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

                        — Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1

                    You need to understand that what we experienced is beyond the legal definitions of torture and border on Crimes Against Humanity, IMHO.
                    Crimes against humanity, as defined by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Explanatory Memorandum"are particularly odious offenses in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. Murder; extermination; torture; rape; political, racial, or religious persecution and other inhumane acts reach the threshold of crimes against humanity only if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice. Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of falling into the category of crimes under discussion."[1]
                    Finally, I do expect an apology.  I am not here for some fun & entertainment AND my known agenda is to get more and better Democrats elected to effect a restoration of sanity to this nation. Simply put, to stop the ever growing evil.  

                    Evil justified is still evil!

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 02:30:50 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  gerrilea I've learned to NOT respond to that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea

                  person, I forgot and tried explaining something recently and got reminded of why I had put that person on 'ignore'.

                  What you are seeing is ALL you will get. Turn it loose.

                  without the ants the rainforest dies

                  by aliasalias on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 02:19:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I appreciate the support, it appears to me that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    aliasalias

                    he or she is crying out for help and maybe it took their cries to be focused in my direction so that I could hear them.

                    Time will tell.

                    Blessings & Peace,

                    ~Gerri

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 02:37:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  If you're trying to destroy the mind (9+ / 0-)

            of a legally innocent person, in order to get him to confess and/or implicate another person, that's torture.  

            It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

            by happymisanthropy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:55:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (10+ / 0-)
            if you want to talk about how Manning is being treated badly, then i'm happy to talk about it.  but saying that he's being tortured is just about trying to turn him into some kind of martyr for the cause.  which is, in my judgment, not only dishonest, but also hurts the cause, because it's so unbelievably outrageous that it turns people off.
            But the mere details of his treatment are just details, unworthy of discussion, except in the context of the reason why his treatment is so exceptional.

            Abuse is not torture... unless it's done with a specific intent.  So no, I won't limit myself to calmly discussing whether he's being treated badly or not.

            this is what you guys do every fucking time.  you try to turn everything into something so shockingly extreme and horrific to try to get attention.  like people won't give a shit about it unless it's the worst thing ever.  if it bleeds it leads, right?  can't just say what's happening, have to sensationalize it.  
            If your argument is that we shouldn't call this torture, shouldn't you have a paragraph about the definition of torture here, instead of a paragraph about what "you guys do every fucking time?"
            and when people who are honest don't jump on your bandwagon, it must be because they are ignorant or don't care or want people to get hurt cause they are evil or something.  how about it's because you scream so fucking loud about every fucking thing that you are the boy who cried wolf?
            You're the one who is personalizing this.  You people do this every time.
            but anyway, proceed to ignore what i said and keep screaming.  keep letting the fact that you can't get people to side with you convince you that people are fuckers.
            You didn't say anything.
            Your comments are basically one long string of ad hominem tu quoque fallacies intermixed with ad hominem abusive fallacies and ad populum fallacies.
            You provided zero substance to respond to.

            It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

            by happymisanthropy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:52:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  So now disagreeing with the Democrats (17+ / 0-)

        makes a person a villain?

        Sorry, Anton. The villains in this sordid saga are all too obvious.

        A proud member of the Professional Left since 1967.

        by slatsg on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:03:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You know, you can make your point without... (26+ / 0-)

        ...adding putrid personal attacks.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:34:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Does he have a point other than the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allenjo, gerrilea, blueoasis

          one on his head?

          American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

          by glitterscale on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:36:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  are you a disgrace, Meteor Blades? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hedwig, AnnetteK

          if you are a Democrat who voted to reelection President Obama, according to Betty you are

          oh, wait, no, she did say that it's only a disgrace to good Democrats who voted for Obama (or didn't)

          are you a good Democrat, Meteor Blades?  cause if you are not, then i guess she wasn't calling you a disgrace

          i don't know if i am a good Democrat or not.  i think i am just a Democrat and that there's no good or bad Democrats.

          do you think there are good and bad Democrats, Meteor Blades?  if you do, what do you think is the distinction?

          Betty has spent the last 4 years using anything and everything to condemn the President that we just spent months trying to get re-elected and I personal feel justified in making a humorous snarky response to being told that IF I am a GOOD democrat that it's a DISGRACE that i just worked to get Obama reelected

          but, you know, maybe you agree with her, so, to you, my comment is a putrid personal attack.  

          now, see, me personally, i would have called the comment about HANGING people in the Bush admin the fucked up comment.  but that's just me.  you, you think defending Democrats who voted for Obama from being called disgraceful is the fucked up comment.  got it.

          •  Yes, I think there are good and bad Democrats... (19+ / 0-)

            ...And I've made that distinction many times. Some Democratic presidents have been both good and bad. Some of their behavior has been disgraceful and some has been exemplary, and in some cases they have been both. Examples? Woodrow Wilson (progressive legislation and racist policies). LBJ (New Deal-style progressive legislation and prosecuting a war that we know he recognized couldn't be won yet still kept sending hundreds of thousands of troops to kill and be killed in). Jimmy Carter (progressive legislation, excellent human rights record and support for the fascist National Guard of Nicaragua that eventually became the terrorist contras).

            I think Barack Obama, like these other Democrats, has been exemplary in many arenas and I had zero hesitation about voting for him and encouraging others to do the same. But his stance on civil liberties and his intensification of the drone war are wrong. And I hope to see him change his views in those matters (as well as others) before his term is up.

            I often disagree with Betty, as she will gladly tell you. Just as I disagree with Kossacks who support the drone war, who think the treatment of Bradley Manning is acceptable because it doesn't meet their definition of torture, who think the national security/national surveillance state is fine and dandy because only people who have something to hide should be concerned.

            Your comment was tantamount to making a psychological diagnosis. And I did, indeed, find it putrid. It doesn't mean that I agree with everything she or others on this thread say about Obama.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:34:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  what psychological diagnosis did i make? (0+ / 0-)

              are you talking about my saying that she feels about Obama the way moriarty feels about sherlock?  i wasn't calling her moriarty.  i was making a pop culture reference and calling Betty the smart introverted personality who has an antagonistic relationship with a charismatic personality.  i almost used the road runner and wille coyote.  or 007 and M.  i figured rated G fictional characters would be taken as light hearted digging.

              i used a pop culture reference to say that Betty will miss Obama when he's gone and you think it's a psychological diagnosis.  okay.

              i don't know.  maybe you are referring to something else i wrote in that comment, but i can't imagine what it would be.

              but you know, if i had actually been comparing her to the super mastermind villain moriarty... what exactly would i be accusing her of?  what did the fictional villain moriarty actual do that was so evil that comparing Betty to him was a pudrid personal attack?  hmmm... let me think... oh right... ALL THE THINGS SHE'S CLAIMING OBAMA DOES.  so, you know what, if she, like this ridiculous diary, is going to claim that Obama behaves like a super villain, then they shouldn't be offended when someone makes that ridiculous claim about them.  which i wasn't, but if i had, where is your comment calling HER comment about Obama and Democrats a pudrid personal attack?  she's only saying he is a murderer and a torturer.  golly gosh only that.  

              but forgive me for not being respectful of people who are accusing Obama of being evil.  i forgot this was Redstate.

      •  Winner of stupidest defense of the indefensible (15+ / 0-)

        Manning hasn't been tried yet, much less convicted but you've decided that punishing him is what military prisons are for. Pretty despicable.

        I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution. Barbara Jordan

        by Lcohen on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:34:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  BULLSHIT and offensive to boot. (8+ / 0-)

        He hasn't been convicted of a fucking thing.  Usually it's TRIAL FIRST, PRISON IF CONVICTED..

        Cheeses K. Rist does your attitude suck, as well as your dime-store personal analysis.

        I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

        by bobdevo on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:16:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  amazing (0+ / 0-)

          i made a comment aimed right at Betty about her comment that Democrats who voted for Obama are a disgrace (a comment that doesn't bug you one bit apparently) and then for one single line i say that i don't think Manning is being tortured and that gets me comments accusing me saying a whole bunch of things i didn't say at all in that one little comment that was really very precise and impossible to mistake for meaning anything else.  

          but see, that's the way you guys do it.  you take one little thing and blow it up into bullshit.  

          anyway.  i see now that the manning diaries are the new I/P diaries and i'm not going to make the mistake of strolling into one of these again.  

      •  Thanks much! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nada Lemming

        Any time I feel the urge to come back to DK a post from the irrational sycophant posse sets me straight.

        The cave, the Matrix, America.

        by Grassee on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:58:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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