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View Diary: Obama and Pelosi demand Boehner allow vote on Senate bill extending middle class tax cuts (147 comments)

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  •  I Have A Hard Time Trying To Figure Out (25+ / 0-)

    If this will create uncertainty and affect business or the stock market. I mean their corporate profits are up at amazing rates. The stock market just keeps increasing. But I don't see them hiring people. I think they just use the "uncertainty" card when they want something.

    When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

    by webranding on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:41:11 PM PST

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    •  Good points. The CBOs estimate is that (22+ / 0-)

      going off the "fiscal cliff" might cause a short-term mild recession but after that is actually good for the economy leading to 5% growth rates in GDP after 2016 due to the better balanced budgets and less debt.

      But, if the GOP would cooperate we should be able to balance the budget in a more graceful, less harmful way.

      At RedState they think we liberals do not care, or understand the undesirable consequences of escalating debt. Despite the fact it was Democrats that balanced the budget under Clinton (they take credit for that) and Bush which destroyed it.

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 04:12:14 PM PST

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      •  Frankly (20+ / 0-)

        I do not give two shits or a good goddamn what anyone at RedState "thinks".

        It is time to #Occupy Media.

        by lunachickie on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 05:21:21 PM PST

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        •  I understand and empathize lunachickie. One (13+ / 0-)

          of the reasons I'm trying to better understand the many perspectives over there is that we only need to convince 10% of the House Republicans to break rank with Boehner to win this discharge petition.

          And, if we make serious efforts it strengthens our bargaining power as the GOP sees it could happen.

          Or, even more likely we convince Boehner to release the GOP to "vote their conscious" (helping him save face from a loss of power.)  

          Sufficient numbers already do no want to fight against us on the middle class tax cuts, or even argue for $1 trillion plus cut to "entitlement spending," which will be a disaster for them in 2014 to indicate to me that we have a plausible chance of winning this battle if we really push for it.

          Sun Tze said "the general who better knows his enemy is the general that wins the battle."  

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:23:52 PM PST

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          •  Tzu not Tze (0+ / 0-)

            Sorry, my spelling in Chinese is almost as bad as it is in English.  

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:49:47 PM PST

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          •  HoundDog.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            HoundDog, lunachickie
            Sun Tze said "the general who better knows his enemy is the general that wins the battle."
            Agree but... one who is of clear mind, strong will and love for what's good for others, and in this case the entire country and the world's economy, will be supported by the spiritual forces/energy of the "will to good" and the law of cause and effect.  

            Now if that doesn't make sense to you let's try law of attraction or common sense!

            •  You are quite an optimist victoria. For a moment I (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elginblt, StrayCat

              thought you might be my girlfriend from my first year at Cornell who left to join the Transcendental Meditation University out in Iowa and was very compelling when she described how one can naturally align oneself with natural spiritual forces and energies.

              I also left Cornell and ended up spending 15 years at MIT as a Research Associate and instructor teaching systems thinking, computer simulation of social systems where we taught people to analyze and create more robust policies and strategies and test them against long chains of cause and effect.  

              So what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. We all would benefit greatly from spending more time trying to help each other better understand, create, and and improve our common good, at every level.

              One odd feeling I had yesterday on that RedState site was the strongest thinkers there also perceive themselves as trying to achieve the common good against the lack of understanding a self-serving impulses to give away money we cannot afford to our constituencies.  

              When you spoke upstream of editing this post to see if I could publish more broadly, one of edits I was thinking about early today, was to shift from adversarial mode to more of a facilitative-cooperative, or side-by-side mode and try to convince the smarter ones why our approach is actually better for the economy and the world in ways they might understand better.

              Because the economic multipliers on military spending on bombs used overseas is much less than on money spend on real productive assets domestically, such as President Obama's infrastructure banks, or even on Medicare as all that money is spend immediately in the US.

              I"m sure I could get through to at least 10% or more, especially if we agreed that in the long-term we must balance the budget on end both budget deficits and trade-deficits which is what the fiscal conservative are most worried about.  I understand those areas pretty well. But, on the down side, I'd have to moderate the "red meat" zingers the home team loves so much, so it might become too bland.  lol

               

              The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

              by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 11:30:23 PM PST

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              •  The president tried "to shift from adversarial (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lunachickie, HoundDog

                mode to more of a facilitative-cooperative" one and victoria almost didn't vote. Along with many others.

                Forget the facilitative-cooperative BS, it doesn't work with Rs. Haven't you been paying attention?

                WAKE THE FUCK  UP!!!!!!!

                "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                by glorificus on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:06:44 AM PST

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                •  Thank you! (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  malie, HoundDog, glorificus, nolagrl

                  These goons are not based in reality. "Understanding them" in hopes of getting better results is a fruitless endeavor.

                  We're not dealing with them. We are dealing with the ruthless bastards who own them. And those people are not the least bit interested in grown-up warfare--they're into childish scorched earth.

                  Fuck Boehner and fuck these GOP toadies. They're all rapidly approaching treason, IMO, if they're not there already. They are not to be trusted under any circumstances and anyone with a working brain will not try and "meet them halfway". There is no halfway with them.

                  It is time to #Occupy Media.

                  by lunachickie on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:58:43 AM PST

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          •  This is not fucking China centuries ago and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lunachickie

            John Boehner is not a great general.

            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

            by glorificus on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:03:02 AM PST

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        •  LOL... luna!!! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HoundDog, lunachickie

          I think you're right, and where did you come up with that lunachickie???  You seem to have a great creative mind.  

    •  CEO's have figured out (6+ / 0-)

      it they can make these kinds of profits w/o workers, why bother hiring.  Capitalism is crushing Democracy.  Bernanke is creating and transferring hundreds of billions of dollars to investment bankers. Why don't we have runaway inflation. Those billions will never enter the consumer markets in America.

    •  That UNCERTAINTY (5+ / 0-)

      is a "scare tactic" and a way to get the Democrats to back down.

      Isn't it?

      They can't back down.  Let the Republicans be responsible for their own @#$%.

      It seems that they could be/might be a bit smarter than to put the entire economy at risk for their own stupid whining about tax cuts.  No?  Well, maybe not.

      •  Yes, uncertainty is a scare tactic but one with (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sue B, elginblt

        some foundation in truth.

        Imagine if you are a business or consumer but do not know what you taxes are going to be next year by a variance of $2,000 - $10,000, or for a business perhaps 10%.  Are you going to hire extra people?  Buy extra Christmas or holiday presents? Or hunker down.  

        Maybe you better get your savings out of the stock market until the uncertainty is over?  Which can then compound in feedback loops.

        Reducing uncertainty is a good thing as far as the economy, incomes, and taxes are concerned. They are right about that much, as far as I can see.  

        That doesn't mean we should accept a deal that is not in the best interest of our people, nor does it mean that slashing social spending wouldn't be a much greater problem.

        I'm not agree with them, just looking for practical ways forward that are as focused as much as possible on achieving more of the good things and less of the bad things.

        The more we focus with surgical precision the more aggressive we can be with our strategy with few unintended side effects that come back to bite us later.

         

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 11:38:31 PM PST

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        •  HoundDog, you don't know what you are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          malie

          talking about. The fact is business never KNOWS from year to year about taxes. They can estimate, but if Al Queada blows up the Statute of Liberty you can bet your ass things will change.

          If you are a business you hire the people you need to fill your orders.

          If you are a consumer you spend the money you can afford.

          Life is uncertain. Most of the people in emergency rooms didn't wake up that day planning to be there.

          "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

          by glorificus on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:12:12 AM PST

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      •  The new Congress (0+ / 0-)

        will vote the tax cuts right back in -for those making under 250,000. :>

        This boy is Ignorance and this girl is Want. Beware them both, but most of all beware this boy for on his brow I see that written which is Doom.” ― Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol

        by nolagrl on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 12:09:17 PM PST

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    •  What in life is certain? (0+ / 0-)

      If we were certain as to what the future holds, why would we need to pay some CEO an 8 figure salary to guide the company

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