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View Diary: Israel Breaches Ceasefire - (maybe) Bombs Gaza? (UPDATED x 3) (140 comments)

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  •  The situation was decidedly NOT (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aliasalias, Agathena, Diane Gee

    the way that you portrayed it with your (cough) intrepid Googling and linguistic analysis.

    There were credible local news agencies reporting this incident.

    More reporting needs to be done.  As you know but do not mention, Harry Fear and the guide who took them to the site found that no other journalists had actually been on the ground there.  Presumably, the reporting came from the hospital where the victims were taken, one of whom is now reportedly brain dead and another who lost a leg.

    But it was not as you accused in your dozens of comments attempting to ridicule and discredit the diarist.  You accused her of mistaking a five week old Facebook post for a new report and you went on and on for hours making that accusation.  It appears that you went looking for backup friends to help attack the diarist an troll rate her to oblivion.   Either that or they came in from the hidden comments.  But you certainly never asked them to stop troll rating the diarist that you were attacking.

    There are two journalists who have said that this was some kind of mix up, an industrial accident of some kind and not an attack by Israel. There are also journalists who were reporting it as an attack. Harry Fear himself reported fighter jets in the air around the area where the attack occurred.  

    None of this was some five week old report as you originally claim and on which you based your attack on the diarist.  The diarist had a source in Gaza and the diarist framed this diary as breaking news and admitted that it needed more sourcing.  She repeatedly told you that it was not based on some facebook thing that she found. She told you that it was coming from someone in Gaza.  This kind of reporting/diaries happen here all the time where a diarist gives the community a heads up about something they have heard and most of the time they don't get trolled and attacked the way this diarist did last night.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 12:50:56 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Where has there been any linguistic (3+ / 0-)

      analysis done in this diary?

      Please point me to that.

      Then we can continue talking.

      The diarist, when I was responding to her, had not made the updates she had now, incidentally. At the time of many of my responses, she said this was all from a friend -- who is not Harry Fear -- who lived in Gaza and was self-reporting on this story, on the ground, as bombs were falling on him.

      Please explain to me how this was happening? Was this an accurate account of what happened? That her friend was being bombed last night? Can you point me to the news story about that? And can you explain why the language was duplicated from a five week earlier story?

      Also, please show me where she was attacked?

      And please note, she did call me a "liar" as well as an "asshole" and a "troll" (including in the body of this diary itself, as an update). For asking reasonable sourcing questions about what even Anonymous right now is still saying needs better sourcing.

      If you have any trouble with this diary, by all means, pass it by moderation and see what they think of it. Feel free to include links to every comment I've made here to see if I've been in any way unreasonable and acted in any way outside of community standards too.

      I'm sorry that your friend was relying on information from someone who was using someone else's words as well as making claims that are not presently backed up by even these controversial claims --  Harry Fear's story happened in East Deir Al-Balah. Does the Facebook friend live there? http://www.facebook.com/...

      Is the facebook friend also Harry Fear?

      So it's a little confusing how Harry Fear ever got brought into this at all.

      The issue was the credibility of RT and the FB friend, neither of which seem to be, and then the issue of better sources, which as you can see from the links, are currently in conflict, and even Harry Fear (who is only one journalist reporting here; at least one or two others went also to the hospital last night and said "explosion" as per the doctor) says it's only a 70% chance that it's from a shelling, and he says it may be from an old bomb already there as one of four possibilities. I don't really see what his picture is showing and have been trying to better understand it.

      None of which was the point of my questions, since none of this was in discussion at all when I asked my questions about why the "friend" was using 1. lifted language from five weeks ago and 2. claiming to be bombed when no one else was reporting bombs being dropped. And that remains the case as of right now: I have seen no reports of bombs dropped on Gaza last night as said friend purports -- have you?

      "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

      by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 01:07:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You claimed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Agathena, Diane Gee

        that the language was from some five week old post.


        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 01:14:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is. (1+ / 0-)

          Read the diary comments.

          "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

          by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 01:17:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not a "Linguistic Analysis" btw (2+ / 0-)

            That's a "time stamp."

            Is that what you were referring to as a Linguistic Analysis? A two-minute Google and a time stamp cross-reference?

            Anyone can see with their naked eye that the language is the same. You don't need to be a Linguist for that one, hoo boy.

            "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 01:19:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I realize that (0+ / 0-)

              A revisit to that comment might indicate that that part of the sentence was in jest with a side order of sarcasm.  I'm aware of what linguistics analysis is and isn't and have close connections to a couple who have dedicated their extensive education and careers to linguistics.

              The kind of language that was being quoted there was very common language, sentences and words that were used over and over and over again by many different people during the latest eight-day attack on Gaza.  You could find that kind of language, those words, all over the internet.

              But all of this does not change the fact that the way you hijacked the diary yesterday was really wrong and deserves an apology.  In addition to that, the honorable thing to do would be to ask your friends to remove the HRs from the diarist that you were unfairly ridiculing and accusing. Just my opinion and what I think would be the honorable thing to do.  YMMV.

              When a diarist comes to dkos with breaking news from a close source on the ground and frames it as breaking news, I appreciate that and I don't think they should be attacked, unless it really is an extraordinary situation or a ridiculous claim with no basis at all.  For instance, while RT is a source that should be viewed with caution, not all of their material should just be written off as coming from a propaganda mill.  RT is really not much more of a propaganda mill than MSNBC in its recent incarnation or dkos itself.  On certain topics, RT has done better reporting than the corporate media, topics such as the Occupy movement and they sometimes cover topics that are somewhat censored or blacked out from the corporate media.  You will find interviews there from some very credible people on numerous subjects, for instance.  So I also disagree with that broad brush that you used to discredit the diarist and the diary.  

              Anyway, I have to finish making dinner here and have kids to attend to and work to do.  I'll check back later to see if you have anything of substance in reply, otherwise, really I have said all that I wanted to say and I stand by it.  I might write more about this later in a diary when I finish dinner and some decorating.  Or it might have to wait until tomorrow, not sure when I can fit it in.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 03:37:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ridiculous (2+ / 0-)

                I participated in this diary from the outset. I was the first person to comment in it. I did so civilly. The only time I was even remotely sarcastic, had you been here, it would have been obvious, was in response to the exact verbiage used toward me in the previous post for the diarist. Other than that, I was just in conversation the entire time. Conversation is reciprocal. The allegations of "trolling" came the moment I noticed that the diarist was possibly being given a less-than-authentic source. Something like twenty other posters saw the post laid out (above) and were easily able to see that the two comments were the same from five weeks prior. It is not a phrase that is common. It is a sentence which had been reposted. It is still being reposted, verbatim. I saw it again on Twitter last night on several feeds. Thus it cannot be someone's own original observation.

                No one else mentioned any bombs, however. Only the diarists' friend claimed bombs from planes were falling on Gaza last night. You will want to be careful of making that claim in your diary unless you can find better sourcing.

                RT is a poor source, like PressTV. It's a propagandist source. I've already cited criticisms about why. You should read all the comments here and note their time stamps; it's hard to follow what happened after something like eighteen hours. I see that's now causing some potential confusion for those just coming now with hundreds of posts here.

                If you decide to write that diary, this just came up and is probably something worth writing on and (I thought) interesting:

                http://www.youtube.com/...

                "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 03:44:21 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That video is very chilling... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joanneleon

                  My god... That is an outrage.

                  I'm not sure this helps your case in this diary.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 03:58:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Which direction (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joanneleon

                    were those bullets going? If fired into Gaza, that in itself could trigger a breach of the ceasefire. Ceasefire means CEASE FIRING. Like, don't fucking fire your rifle when it is only a journalist walking around within Gaza, on the Gaza side of the border.

                    Even if the rifle were fired into the ground, giving even the appearance of firing a shot is arrogant and disrespectful of the spirit of ceasefire, and it portends trouble on the horizon.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:04:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  It does not conflict with what I've said (2+ / 0-)

                    I've already said everything I have to say and can play "repeat" forever, but that's boring.

                    This link is the only substantiated and news-worthy thing I have found in eighteen hours in regard to Gaza, so I wanted to share it.

                    "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                    by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:21:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's fine (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Diane Gee

                      I simply didn't see how the video related to your argument, since it doesn't add anything that would shore up your assertions, and, in fact, lends credence to reports of breaches of the ceasefire.  

                      If you simply were sharing something for sharing's sake, I understand.

                      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                      by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:26:28 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Perhaps you didn't note what I was arguing? (2+ / 0-)

                        Credible journalism. Source citation. Not speculation. Especially not over something this big and potentially inflammatory and dangerous for both sides.

                        I am going to do some reading now though. I'm overdue on that today.

                        "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                        by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:29:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Heh (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          joanneleon

                          I read a good part of the "discussion." I know what your argument was.

                          The entire idea of citizen blogging means that citizen bloggers may have unconventional sources, such as a friend on the scene.

                          This is why I would be a bit more tolerant of the diarist's claims than were you.

                          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                          by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:33:02 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  It was only recently (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Diane Gee, joanneleon

                          that DKos was embarrassed for the relentless attack of a citizen reporter who alleged that Romney made some revealing comments (the whole 47% fiasco). Markos got upset when Mother Jones picked up the story and ran with it. But the diary police here attacked the diarist mercilessly.

                          In my opinion, you weren't very tolerant in your tone. It's okay to raise the issues you did, but you were bent on thrusting your interpretation down the diarist's throat in a typically condescending tone, with the help of a bunch of hide rating friends.

                          Just my opinion, if opinion is still allowed by the cadre of self appointed diary police.

                          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                          by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:46:03 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I am fine with opinion (2+ / 0-)

                            I welcome it.

                            I feel my tone was civil. I never called anyone an "asshole" or a "liar" or a "troll," for example.

                            "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:05:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Laughing here... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            joanneleon

                            Because I have been called all of those things by people you tend to agree with. I don't ever recall you objecting when it was happening to others, when you weren't in agreement with them.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:20:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't really care about groups (3+ / 0-)

                            I have noticed you talk a lot about friends, groups, packs, and cadres on this site. You know, I literally don't much think like that. I view the whole site as people I sometimes agree with on one issue, and I might disagree with the same people on another issue. I also might like a poster who I never agree with for some reason or another.

                            So your comment, it doesn't really apply to me because I'm only able to speak for myself. What others do is what they do. I am not concerned with, or able to, control them, nor would I want to be -- ugh.

                            I keep in touch, IRL, with a few Kossacks and have a strong bond with these. Few are steady commenters here right now, unfortunately.

                            So the world isn't "us" and "them" in my mind.

                            "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:24:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Some people have pattern recognition abilities (0+ / 0-)

                            that others lack. I can't help but see the pattern of individuals acting as a group. It isn't something I try to see, but rather is something I can't help seeing. If you can't see it, don't presume it isn't a factor or that your perception is so reliable that you decide another's isn't.

                            Not that this is rocket science. It's pretty obvious that the same individuals show up time after time hide rating and attacking.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:48:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And when a group (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            joanneleon

                            shows a willingness to hide rate and attack, it tends to create momentum with unsuspecting readers. People may rush in and jump on the bandwagon, because people often go with the crowd. This is why it is something that must be pointed out when it is seen. People mistakenly think a large number of people acting together indicates authority, or correctness in approach by sheer numbers. It can become a destructive element.

                            I loath groupthink.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:46:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  except you cited another source (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ZhenRen

                          as my source, and claimed his similar language to be plagarized.

                          It was not.  When English is your second (or in his case 4th) language?  You speak simply.

                          There were planes over head, buzzing them.  He never claimed the shots were from them.  Nor did I.

                          Your journalism was sloppier.  You googled, and made assumptions.

                          ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

                          by Diane Gee on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:57:18 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I teach ELL English and have for years (3+ / 0-)

                            This year, that's been yet more full-time than before. So I am aware of the issues associated with that.

                            You said he was dodging bombs.

                            He did not use a general phrase. He used an exact one.

                            That is all.

                            "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:04:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wasn't the "dodging bombs" comment (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Diane Gee, joanneleon

                            Diane's interpretation, not literally what was told to her by the reporter on the ground?

                            I think you're being very ungenerous to the diarist.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:15:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The reporter on the ground said (1+ / 0-)

                            on FB, when Diane Gee asked if they were bombing him, he replied with "yes it is true my friend" there.

                            Fact.

                            "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:26:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And you're certain (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Diane Gee

                            of the language skills reflected in that remark, as well?

                            Bombing, as a present participle, indicates an ongoing situation. Are you certain the user understood this in the proper context?

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:35:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This was my thinking, as well (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Diane Gee, joanneleon

                            I remember times when I was writing in Spanish, which to me is a second language having grown up in Puerto Rico, and I would lift words from sources I thought were correct, when translating legal documents.

                            Perhaps the phrases used were borrowed, simply because they fit, and the reporter thought the words to be grammatically correct.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 05:06:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  I saw that video earlier (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Diane Gee, ZhenRen

                  I have been following HarryFear pretty closely since the most recent attack on Gaza.  He tweeted about that incident with the IDF.  He also has a series of tweets from the people who live in the area near where the explosion happened.  They said that they are farmers and that Israel breaches the ceasefire all the time if you are a farmer.

                  I also read that cars are being vandalized in Jerusalem and one car had a message painted on it about a price to pay for Gaza. I also read that 400 olive trees have been uprooted since the ceasefire as another sort of retaliation.  Bombing the shit out of them for eight days wasn't enough, somehow.  

                  Harry is well worth following.  When he wasn't out reporting or livestreaming, relaying information from his vast network of local sources, he would leave his livestream on in the dark while he slept and you could hear for yourself what it was like to live in Gaza during that seige.  He attracted thousands and thousands of followers and viewers during that time and some major news agencies brought him on for interviews, RT among them.  Again, your narrow depiction of RT is not accurate.  It might be a propaganda mill, but so are many US media companies.  That does not mean that every piece of information coming from them is discredited.  In today's world with a highly compromised media, it's better to consider a more granular source, the journalist, rather than to smear an entire organization.  Things have changed a lot in the media over the last five years or so.


                  "Justice is a commodity"

                  by joanneleon on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 04:12:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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