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View Diary: The Squandered Potential of Occupy (240 comments)

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  •  If there was no one complaing aobut drones, (0+ / 0-)

    there would be no one to oppose the use of drones. You have to take the good with the bad, I guess?

    •  Nobody on the left LIKES drones..... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheLizardKing, Smoh, hooper, high uintas

      ...some of us think they actually prevent more deaths, some of us oppose them altogether.

      But a small minority of magical-thinkers on the Left apparently think that a Republican president would be better than Obama on this?  Or something?  That's just stupid.

      I suppose if a vote for Jill Stein made some people feel better about themselves, who am I to question that....

      Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

      by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:55:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Drones are an abomination, a technological (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        barleystraw

        kill fetish that distances the masters of war from the war. (and since I am all of sudden channeling Dylan, I'll also mention that "the executioners face is always well-hidden").

        There is no way to square your moral life with the way drone strikes are propagating. There is no "these deaths create less death in the world" argument that works at any level.

        The only way of squaring our present admin and drones is by cognating some serious dissonance.... life is complicated, yes, and we can understand how technologies - once invented - are inevitably used, but don't for a minute get easy with yourself on such sloppy moral grounds. That is the root of the most cynical forms of nihilism.

        •  I'm not going to argue it here... (0+ / 0-)

          I'm just going to stick up my hand and go, uh, I think I might be in favor of the use of drones.  I know I'm outnumbered here.  I don't want to fight over it, though, not here.  I'm merely pointing out that you don't have unanimous consensus on this and that people like me who have deep moral feelings about just about every other aspect of the Bush years, from torture to domestic spying to wars of adventure to corporate cronyism, can still square it with drones if they want to.  I just don't see it in the same class.

        •  I'm still witholding judgment (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not going to pretend to be some kind of expert on drone strikes--and I'd say anyone who does is a liar.  I'd say that because it's just about impossible to find undisputed facts about the number combatants killed vs the number of civilians killed.  I'm not even sure you can always make a clear distinction between "combatants" and "civilians" in Taliban-controlled regions.  

          I'm also not going to pretend I know what the alternative to drone strikes would be.  How much of a threat do the targets pose to us?  If the individuals targeted are a serious enough threat, one could argue that a drone strike--even with its inherent risks--is preventing less discriminate bombings, ground troops, terrorist attacks, etc--you know, that "less deaths" argument you say can't work at any level.  (Just saying it doesn't make it so, however....)  What are the deterrent effects of drones?  Would the targets use human shields if we attempted to kill them by other means, meaning there would still be innocent casualties?  

          Look, on its surface, drone warfare is ugly.  I have no doubt that like every other type of warfare there are civilian casualties.  And I'd prefer we weren't engaged in any type of war.   But letting hostile people intent on doing us harm operate unfettered is ugly too.  

          If the president I voted for and respect (read: not Bush) and our national security agencies say that drone strikes prevent casualties by preventing attacks on the US or by reducing the need for ground warfare and they produce numbers that seriously dispute civilian casualty numbers given by the Pakistan government, I am going to need to see some hard evidence to the contrary before declaring them an abomination.  Doesn't mean I'm supportive and want to see more drone strikes....it just means I'm prepared to accept them as a "necessary evil" in a dangerous world until someone shows me otherwise.  But really, I am open to that evidence.    

          I guess my question to you is....we end the drone strikes, our enemies are still operating, so now what?  What's your alternative?  

          Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

          by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:39:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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