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View Diary: BIG NEWS: For First Time, Britain & France May Recall Ambassadors to Israel | U.S. Red Line Crossed (393 comments)

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  •  Gaza is a ghetto from I've read. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superskepticalman, netop

    But not, as you have explained, like the Warsaw Ghetto. Not warped thinking. A lack of information.

    Now U.S, media coverage of the conflict, that is warped.

    Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

    by FrY10cK on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 03:56:20 AM PST

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    •  I had to explain this to you? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1, ahyums

      If I had to explain to you what the Warsaw Ghetto actually was, you need to always avoid any references to anything even vaguely related to the Nazi Holocaust and do some serious studying.

      Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

      by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:22:52 AM PST

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      •  Perhaps (5+ / 0-)

        instead of asking an ill-informed question, I should have expressed my frustration that Jews, of all people, don't seem to understand that a people, oppressed for long enough, will fight back with whatever they have at hand.

        In the case of Palestinians, it's Soviet-era unguided munitions and explosives strapped to their own bodies. And the U.S. media always refer to these as "terrorist attacks" while calling Israeli violence "military strikes" or some such.

        Two final things;
        1) You never addressed my other points about Israel's ongoing oppression of Palestinians.
        2) Your insults do nothing to elucidate or further the discussion.

        Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

        by FrY10cK on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:51:04 AM PST

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        •  No, I don't specifically address other points (0+ / 0-)

          when you compare Israel to Nazi genocidal murderers. I address them in other contexts.

          Expressing your frustration this way is fine; the other way is not fine. It's the difference between very reasonable discourse and something that smacks of anti-Semitism, which apparently was not what you wanted to do at all.

          Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

          by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:25:23 AM PST

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          •  Nothing that FrY10ck said comes close (5+ / 0-)

            to anti-Semitism. We are talking about the actions of the state of Israel. The official religion in that country and the heritage of its people are mostly irrelevant.

            In any case, the fact that Israel has a state religion should make them more open to criticism, not less.

            It is more important to be a confident and articulate speaker than to know jack shit about anything.

            by VictorLaszlo on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:28:19 PM PST

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            •  If you can convince yourself that the fact that (0+ / 0-)

              Israel is a Jewish state has nothing to do with the pleasure some non-Jewish opponents of Israel get in analogizing them with the Nazis, I can only say that I think you're being willful in refusing to allow yourself to be conscious of a dog whistle so loud it should pierce your head off your neck.

              Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

              by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:12:47 PM PST

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    •  Gaza is a ghetto. (9+ / 1-)

      1. Ethnically homogenous
      2. Established by a state to contain an ethnic group
      3. Restricted freedoms and rights for residents
      4. Residents subject to mass punishment
      5. Residents subject to restriction of movement
      6. Economically separated from the outside
      7. Lack of access to legal system
      8. Lack of representation in the administrating government
      9. Crowded, insufficient housing

      The above is just a list off the top of my head, and is by no means authoritative.  It also includes what I think of as being aspects of the Jewish ghettoes as established in Europe from 1939.  Ghettoes were around long before Nazis and not all of them displayed all the above traits. For example, economic integration of the residents of Jewish ghettoes into the city's economy was often sought after in Catholic countries.  

      So, IMHO, Gaza is a ghetto.  It's not identical to the Warsaw Ghetto, but it does share several traits.  The fact that it is not part of a plan that includes concentration camps does not change its other qualities.

      "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

      by netop on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:50:30 AM PST

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      •  The Warsaw Ghetto was not around (0+ / 0-)

        before the Nazis. I'm not buying your strained analogy, which cannot be reasonably be invoked other than in order to accuse Israel of planning to wipe out the Palestinians, which if they plan that, is an extremely slow-motion effort, you'd have to admit.

        Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

        by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:37:06 AM PST

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        •  Many ghettoes existed prior to Nazism (4+ / 0-)

          for centuries throughout Europe.  They were expressions of bigotry and discrimination.  They inflicted hardship and/or unfair financial burdens on the Jewish residents.  They had walls and gates that were occasionally sealed.  They were not just ethnic enclaves or neighborhoods.  They were officially sanctioned or even created as the only permitted area for Jews to reside in a city.   And with few exceptions, they were filled with crowded housing.  
          However, these pre-Nazi ghettoes were not part a planned extermination of European Jewry.  If they are still ghettoes, then why isn't Gaza a ghetto?

          "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

          by netop on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:37:47 AM PST

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          •  Yes, many ghettos existed (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW

            So analogize Gaza to one of those, not to one created by the Nazis for the express purpose of forcing all Jews in the area into it and then having a convenient place to force them into trains bound for Auschwitz, where they were murdered. Calling Gaza a ghetto is one thing, and not unreasonable, as you point out. But analogizing it to the Warsaw Ghetto is quite different. I hope you get that. And if you do, please stop trying to cover for such an analogy.

            Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

            by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:18:21 PM PST

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      •  Hide rate on this is unwarranted, IMHO (4+ / 0-)

        "..The political class cannot solve the problems it created. " - Jay Rosen

        by New Rule on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:27:55 AM PST

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        •  Comparisons of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          are not allowed according to standing MB policy in I/P discussions.

          •  I am not comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WattleBreakfast

            except to point out that it shares some traits that with it, as all ghettoes do.  I make explicit that it differs from the Warsaw Ghetto in that it is not part of a larger plan that includes mass extermination of the resident population.  If

            The above is just a list off the top of my head, and is by no means authoritative.  It also includes what I think of as being aspects of the Jewish ghettoes as established in Europe from 1939.
            was misread as me likening Gaza to Warsaw, let me reiterate:  not all ghettoes are the same.  Housing in some (or at least parts of some) was/are not overcrowded and unhealthy.  Residents in some (at certain times) did/do have access to the mainstream economy and varying degrees of access to the legal system.  Those established by Nazis sucked.  They would have sucked worse than most any ghetto that came before even WITHOUT the mass murder that was Nazi policy.  Without the Death Camps, they still would have been ghettoes.  Really bad ghettoes.  Ghettoes that ruthlessly embodied every shitty trait on that list.  
            Those traits also define living conditions for the residents of the West Bank.  

            "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

            by netop on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 02:13:30 PM PST

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            •  If you are saying the traits that align (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, MichaelNY

              do so by definition of being a ghetto then there was no reason to ever mention the Warsaw Ghetto in the first place.

              Any point you wish to make can be done so without such a comparison.

              •  It had already been mentioned upthread by others (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WattleBreakfast

                so I felt it should be addressed in my comment.  I agree with the one poster that Gaza is unlike Warsaw.  I agree with the other poster that Gaza is a ghetto.  I couldn't really avoid mentioning it.

                "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

                by netop on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 02:38:10 PM PST

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            •  Quite a bit more than that.. (5+ / 0-)
              I make explicit that it differs from the Warsaw Ghetto in that it is not part of a larger plan that includes mass extermination of the resident population.
              ..because prior to the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto being sent to Treblinka at least 100,000 of the original 400,000 inhabitants died of starvation or disease.  I don't know who in this thread first brought up the Warsaw Ghetto in the context of Gaza, but let me say that the comparison is not only not apt -- it always leads to a distraction and hijacking of the diary thread; often originating from those who sympathize with the POV of the diarist.  

              Your glitch can be your superpower (Sarah Silverman, Brand X)

              by sofia on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 06:19:18 PM PST

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          •  Where is this rule spelled out? (0+ / 0-)

            I don't remember reading anything on this site disallowing such comments. And arbitrary restrictions on content strike me as injurious to healthy discourse.

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