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View Diary: BIG NEWS: For First Time, Britain & France May Recall Ambassadors to Israel | U.S. Red Line Crossed (393 comments)

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  •  jstreet vs likud (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MichaelNY, mkor7, Timothy J, biryanifan

    Is it useful to separate support for Israel and support for Israel's right wing?  

    •  Yes, it is (20+ / 0-)

      There is a difference between supporting Israel's right to exist and supporting the policies of whichever government is in power in Israel at any given time.

      Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

      by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 04:18:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Also, a difference between supporting RIGHT (8+ / 0-)

        to exist and supporting MEANS of existence.  

        I support my neighbors right to exist.  That support of her right to exist doesn't mean I'm going to help pay her mortgage, regardless  of whether or not she is trying to build a shed in someone else's yard or whether I agree with her politics.  
        Likewise, I support the right of Kurdistan to exist, but don't think it is a great idea to invade two or three countries in order to make that happen.

        Framing the argument in terms of a binary option limits discussion and is akin to a leading question (or false argument or logical fallacy or some other rhetorical whatchamacallit) that I find disturbing.  It presumes that if an individual supports the RIGHT of Israel to exist, s/he then only has the choice whether to support the current administration or a particular policy.  Support of the state is presumed unless, of course, that individual declares that Israel has no right to exist.  

        To be clear:
        I support the RIGHT of Israel to exist.
        I don't agree with supporting the existence of Israel.  
        I also don't agree with supporting the destruction of Israel.
        If they want to be a nation-state and they do it on their own... rock on.  If they get by fine when I am one of many that boycott Israeli products in protest of their a current shit head theocratic government, so be it.*  If they can't get along with their neighbors and isolate themselves from world through their actions and go down the drain hole of history, that's fine too.

        *I think that wanting to alter the actions of, or remove from power a government that I find objectionable is separate from both supporting the right of that government's nation to exist and is separate also from support of that nation.  It is simply a reaction to current behaviors of that nation.  However, a pattern of similar reactions to behavior does either augment or diminish the chances for success for that government's state.  
        To reintroduce the neighbor again:  If my neighbor (who has the right to exist) is a shithead, I won't help him out.  I might even go so far as to complain to city about the unregistered car/ broken fence/ noise violations because he's such an asshole.  I might put up a spite fence.  I might organize a block party and fail to invite him.  Other neighbors might do the same.  We might make it difficult enough for him that he leaves (or goes berserk and then goes to jail).  Either way, I never denied his RIGHT to exist as his neighbor.

        "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

        by netop on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:02:58 AM PST

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        •  Do you support the right of Israel to exist (0+ / 0-)

          Or are you indifferent to whether Israel exists or not? That's also a point of view a person can have. But if you're boycotting them for a principled reason, namely objections to official Israeli behavior, I don't know why you'd think it's fine if the boycott produces none of the behavioral changes you hope to induce through your boycott.

          Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

          by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 10:30:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Generally indifferent (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lotlizard, MichaelNY, Pistoche

            (which is not incompatible with supporting the right of Israel to exist)

            To clarify my position regarding boycotts:
            I do not buy Israeli products because I feel that my money would go to support actions that I find immoral.  
            I hope that my actions, along with the actions of other people that find those same actions objectionable reduces or eliminates those actions.
            If the reduction or cessation of those objectionable acts is due to Bibi having a change of heart, moderates gaining power in the Knesset, or the collapse of the Israeli state doesn't really matter that much to me.  

            "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

            by netop on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:17:21 PM PST

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          •  Israel's legal "right to exist" (13+ / 0-)

            is conditional entirely on the United Nations partition of 1947 and the United Nations recognition of Israel as a State within the "Jewish" sector of that partition.  Israel has no right to territorial claims outside that partition, and continued occupation of territory outside the partition is a violation of both Israel's original charter of statehood and international law regarding annexation of territory.

            Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

            by Deward Hastings on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:55:35 PM PST

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            •  I don't think Israel's annexation (0+ / 0-)

              of land occupied during the 1948-49 war is questioned. Relevant UN resolutions talk about the return of land occupied in 1967 in exchange for agreed-upon borders and security. They do not refer to withdrawal to the lines in the 1947 partition plan, which was (not without good reason) rejected by all Arab states and the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs.

              Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

              by MichaelNY on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:08:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I do not! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lotlizard

            I will not support any state that is premised on the denial of rights to people who fail to belong to the correct religion.  

            Get the discrimination out of the legal framework, and I will be happy to support it under any name: Israel, Palestine, or Rumplestiltskin.  

      •  The government responsible for Cast Lead (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Flyswatterbanjo, lotlizard, MichaelNY

        and the 2006 war against Lebanon was a Kadima/Labor coalition.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:33:22 PM PST

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    •  Two words: HECK YEAH (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh

      And as some of my fellow Jews would add, OY GEVALT!

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