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View Diary: Ah, The Defense Keynesians Are Here (63 comments)

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  •  Hilarious (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    So is building windmills and solar panels the same thing?

    It would have to be, right? Big, capital-heavy, hyper efficient manufacturing on large capital goods? How could defense be any different than green manufacturing in this regard?

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 11:17:18 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not sure I buy Kayo's argument, but... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alice kleeman, howd, kurt, Kevskos

      Windmills and solar panels produce electricity, which can be used by businesses and individuals for productive purposes, thus growing the economy.

      Tanks and other weapons produce nothing, and their use and maintenance consume resources and manpower that could otherwise be put to constructive uses.

      I don't know what's been trickling down, but it hasn't been pleasant---N. Pelosi

      by Russycle on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 12:25:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mrs M

        I agree, but that's the point. Everything needs to be judged on its output, not whether it 'creates jobs' or whatever.

        If we need tanks, make those. If we need windmills, make those. Just don't spew out any argument at all because you like one of them but not the other.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 01:03:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But what do we "need" so many tanks FOR? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          radarlady, Kevskos

          And so many airplanes?
          And so many helicopters?
          And so many other insanely expensive hi-tech killing toys?

          Maybe if we minded our own damn business more, and stopped trying to be the Biggest Bully in the World, we wouldn't need so many things that are only good for destruction.

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 07:37:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It was (0+ / 0-)

          not an argument.  It was a statement of fact.  A tank adds very little economic activity to the economy after it is built.  A windmill, continuing the example, produces energy that is used by other agents to do things like run factories and type on computers.  The windmill is going to add value to the economy every day it is operational.

          •  That wasn't the argument (0+ / 0-)

            The argument is that it's stimulative.

            If you are going to argue that we should build windmills to make clean power, I'm completely in agreement.

            However, if the argument is some kind of stimulative element "look at all the jobs!" I don't buy it.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 05:17:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dumbass. (0+ / 0-)

               You missed the point entirely.  I did not say anything about the windmill being green power, that is just one of its attributes.

              Building the tank itself is stimulative, then it adds nothing to the economy.  Build a windmill and the building is stimulative and then the power it produces is also stimulative.  Thus much much greater economic stimulus for the buck then the tank.  

              •  Like I said (0+ / 0-)

                We disagree. Stimulus is worthless. Money spent purely for stimulative purposes is wasted.

                Money spent buying things of value in the most cost effective manner possible isn't wasted.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 11:29:15 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  What do (0+ / 0-)

                  you think money spent on stimulus is used for?  It buys things. Done best it buys things that produce more stimulative effects like windmills, highways, High Schools, etc. .  Done worse you give tax cuts or buy war planes, tanks, prisons or bail out Wall Street.

                  We don't disagree you refuse to listen even to yourself.  Look at your last sentence.  That it what stimulus spending is.

    •  UMass study finds tax cuts provide more jobs (4+ / 0-)

      than the military. So taking money from taxpayers and putting it into munitions results in a job loss. This is not true for clean energy, healthcare, or education. They all create more jobs than they cost.

      Here are the numbers from the 2009 University of Massachusetts PERI study. There is a nice graph on page 5.

      Jobs per $billion:

      Military = 11,600
      Tax Cuts = 14,800
      Clean Energy = 17,100
      Healthcare = 19,600
      Education = 29,100

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