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View Diary: Gun Control ← There, said it - We are going about this the wrong way (619 comments)

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  •  I can never fault someone (14+ / 0-)

    for being utopian or the desire to make things better.

    It's what challenges us to make the world a better place.

    I also cannot fault a person for being a realist - and having to do what one deems necessary.

    It is my hope that the realists and the utopians can peacefully co-exist and understand each others motivations.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 07:11:39 AM PST

    •  This .... (8+ / 0-)

      Idealism is a wonderful thing, ideal, one might say.

      But we live in the real world and have to be pragmatic too.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 07:27:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here is your problem twigg (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        twigg, quince, ScienceMom, Smoh, coquiero

        There is a reason there are no statistics. Because no real study has been made since the mid nineties. Because they is no funding for the study of gun ownership as a matter of public health. There are those of us who are tired of people from the RKBA refusing to engage in an honest debate. Instead we get accused of things we are not guilty of. And our arguments get ignored. The current state of research is exceptionally poor and the NRA keeps it that way.

        The Supreme Court has spoken but they do not get the last word. I have the right to work to amend the constitution to repeal the 2nd amendment. And encourage others to do likewise. The 2nd amendment is not sacred. The forces who oppose abortion have the same right to take their argument into the public sphere and argue for a constitutional amendment. This is not a dead issue. And to waive off the suffering of gun crime victims with a plea that we are powerless because of the second amendment is to admit that guns are more important than people.

        I am the victim of a gun crime. Someone in the RKBA accused me of being a liar. So I do not have respect for the RKBA because they do not respect me, a victim of gun violence. So do not expect me to play nice with people as reckless and dishonest as these folks. They do not play fair and they whine when they lose.

    •  I'm not sure understanding motivations is (7+ / 0-)

      enough. I can understand anti-abortionists' reasons for thinking no fetus should be terminated - but that doesn't mean I agree or respect them or their argument.

      Really, I do think gun ownership is such a minor issue in American life compared to MENTAL ILLNESS, poverty, ignorance, greed, racism, misogyny, drug abuse, alcohol abuse - I could go on and on, that I think too much time is wasted in arguments that change no one's mind and only create hard feelings.

      Yes, I have participated in RKBA diaries.

      In fact, I just read the 11-29 Open Thread KV did. Once the obligatory nastiness was disposed of, there was quite an involved and sophisticated (to me) discussion on reloading. Those in the discussion seemed knowledgable and extremely competent. The general miasma of fury was replaced by the pleasure of sharing techniques and learning.

      Of course, there is no way to leave politics out permanently. As long as citizens are getting killed in massacres by civilians or cops, people will focus on the most visible factor - guns.

      The "invisible" factors like MENTAL ILLNESS, fear, racism, ignorance, etc., etc., ad infinitum are more difficult to address and therefore ignored.

      This is a longer comment than I usually write so I'll stop now before tl:dr is triggered.

      Thanks, twigg.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 07:45:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Motivation (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        twigg, James Kresnik, FrankRose, Smoh

        can be many things but a resonable motivation would be to limit access of firearms to mentally ill people.

        I think one can be pro-choice and want to limit the amount of abortions - not by legislation but by making birth control more available and accessable to  prevent unwanted pregnancies.

        On that topic - some are motivaed that abortion should be illegal and that the abrting Mom should go to jail - they will try to paint all people who get abortions as careless, morally degenerate people.  

        I think both are controversial topics that can bring out the worst in people.

        When discussing, we should always acknowlege that RKBA and Abortion are both legal and that by resticting those rights or laws will always be met with fierce resistance.  One will never get anywhere if there ultimate motive is to ban guns and then any step in between is looked upon as one step closer to that goal - that's when both sides usually become unreasonable.

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 08:59:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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