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View Diary: Gun Control ← There, said it - We are going about this the wrong way (619 comments)

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  •  cars make it easier to kill too (6+ / 0-)

    No, cars aren't designed to kill, but they certainly make killing easier.  In the Chicago suburbs a couple years ago a mother ran over her son's rival in a fight over a girl.

    Knives are designed to kill.  Pointy sticks are designed to kill.  Even a length of rope can be designed to kill.  You will never be able to wrap the world in enough bubble wrap to prevent one person from killing another.

    Murder didn't start with the invention of the gun, and it won't stop if guns magically vanished.  

    Cars, knives and ropes aren't problems just because someone misuses them to kill, and guns aren't a problem because someone misuses them to kill.

    The issue is the violence and the desire to kill another human being.  Focusing on the gun is just a way of denying the real psychological problems that need to be addressed.

    •  Yep, but 4 out of 5 murders are by firearm. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Palmetto Progressive

      All the others make up just 20%, which goes part of the way to explain why the homicide rate in the US is around 5 times that of the EU, where there is gun control of varying degrees depending on the country.

      Sorry Twigg - broke the no stats rule.

      •  You're making a logical fallacy (7+ / 0-)

        The gun control argument is, as you say, 80% of murders are with a gun.  Therefore, you say, ban guns and 4 out of 5 murders won't happen.

        Bullshit I say.  5 out of those 5 murders wanted to kill someone.  Take away the guns, and 5 out of those 5 people still want to kill.  If 0/5 murders are committed with a gun, but the murder rate doesn't change, did we gain anything?

        If you want to take away our civil rights, then the burden of proof is on you to show why 4 out of 5 murderers won't simply pick up the next weapon they find if they can't get a gun.

        Canada has more guns per capita than we do, and a murder rate closer to the EU.  I have proof that access to guns doesn't cause a high murder rate, and I have much reason to expect the murder rate to be unchanged in the face of a gun ban.  No, 4/5 murders using a gun does not explain why our murder rate is 5 time the EU.  That's why we need to work on the root causes of violence instead of just trying to ban guns.

        You aren't going to get the result you expect.

        •  Just read this weeks papers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          No - you will not get a an 80% reduction because other factors come into play. But if you take this week with the sports guy - no gun - no death. Sure his girlfriend might have ended up like the lesbian who got beat up over thanksgiving, but would probably still be alive. If she had lived, he may not have felt the need to shoot himself.

          Or how about the guy who unloaded 8 shots into the SUV in a parking lot cos the (black) kids were playing the music too loud. If he had no gun in the glove compartment, you think he would have taken the Tyre iron to the guys in the SUV, or just driven away.

          How many examples do you  require to conclude that some reduction in the number of firearms is required?

          •  Civil rights don't work that way (6+ / 0-)

            How about this?  We take away the right of young black men to assemble and own cars.  That way, young black men won't be playing their music too loud in parking lots, and they won't be there to get shot at.  Sound reasonable?  No?

            What of the mothers who stab their children?  Maybe we need a law that says women aren't to be trusted with sharp objects?  Again, resonable, no?  Don't you want to protect the children?  Trade a little freedom for the illusion of security?

            But I have to ask, what does "reduction in the number of firearms" mean?  The 2nd Amendment says we're each allowed to own 1 gun at the minimum, and one gun is all that's needed to kill someone.  So I see no way to prevent the murders you listed without violating our Constitutional rights and disarming everyone.  It's not going to happen, so stop asking for it.
            And not a single legal gun control measure, no reduction of firearms can prevent murder if a legal gun owner with no priors just snaps.

            Sorry, but free and open societies have to solve these problems other ways.

        •  'murder rate doesn't change, did we gain anything? (0+ / 0-)

          but the murder rate does change.
          (according to those 'statistics')

    •  Sigh. This again. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, cany, Joy of Fishes

      Cars, knives, and ropes all have uses completely unrelated to killing or maiming.  (Transportation, cooking, and hoisting come immediately to mind.)  The same cannot be said of guns.  Guns are desired for one reason -- they are a potentially lethal weapon.  Until people are willing to admit that they are therefore not analogous to products that are designed for other, nonlethal uses, we can't have an honest discussion of this issue.

      No, murder wouldn't stop if guns simply vanished, but mass murder would become a great deal more difficult to commit if they did.  One needs to acknowledge that one reason guns are prized is for their efficiency and effectiveness as killing machines.  People buy them to have an advantage in firepower over their presumed adversaries, and guns make possible the rapid killing of large numbers of people.  What's more, those people can be killed from a distance.  That simply isn't true of cars, knives, and ropes.

      Thus, when we discuss guns, we ought to be willing to admit that they are fundamentally different in nature from other types products that may end up being used as weapons.  Those other products have other uses.  Guns do not.

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:12:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  feather dusters can kill. water can kill. (0+ / 0-)

      you lose.

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