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View Diary: Guns, what guns? (44 comments)

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  •  I don't intent to ban guns, thats not the intent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happy camper

    its to get a serious discussion on national gun control. Much of the weapons in Chicago are trafficked from the south where gun sales are extremely lax.

    Or are purchased through proxy by having someone make many purchases at many different locations during a short amount of time.

    Can one own a weapon, sure.

    But one does not need to purchase 30 hand guns at a show without any background check and zero record of a transaction.

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 10:30:43 AM PST

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    •  You do understand that when the gov't (5+ / 0-)

      bans or regulates things, that act creates a black market.?

      Then there will be more violence and killing.

      How about we focus on something that will help all of us and not require a constitutional revision?  Say, living wages and jobs? Fully funded health services, including mental health? Legalizing drugs?

      We have proof that crime goes down across the board with drug decriminalization.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 11:22:12 AM PST

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      •  Of course it does (0+ / 0-)

        But to just blithely ignore that there are not a component of the over all problem is just being obtuse.

        --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

        by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 11:37:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But it is (5+ / 0-)

          seldom legal owners who are at issue--criminal activity and acts by people who are currently prohibited from having guns in the first place, are responsible for the majority of the problem. Prohibiting more people is not the answer. Better enforcement of current law, stricter reporting requirements for the NICS database and funding for same, making mental health treatment more available, improved education opportunities, drug legalization, jobs... all these would help more, and are actually doable, rather than passing controversial laws that will have little impact.

          Tipped and rec'd for the discussion.

          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

          by happy camper on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 11:52:52 AM PST

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          •  I agree in whole and I am not arguing for totality (0+ / 0-)

            in any ban. I don't mind people owning guns, purchasing them, etc..

            I just take issue with the ease of which criminality bypasses laws by taking advantage of loopholes in existing laws because they are so varied from state to state.

            If we could just enforce universally across all states some of the existing regulations some states enforce, it would do wonders to prevent guns from reaching streets and ending up into the hands of an adolescent who perhaps has zero time to conclude the repercussions that discharging that weapon at another human being has.

            I only argue it because I've lived it. I've known people who that was standard MO. They would drive down to Alabama, or Georgia, or wherever. They would meet someone at a gun show, or dealerships that happen to be owned by a single person. Purchase a trunk full of weapons and then drive back up and sell them out of the back of the trunk.

            There has got to be a better way to prevent that

            --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

            by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 12:03:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Enforcement. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              idbecrazyif, gerrilea, oldpunk

              The scenario you describe is currently unlawful. A licensed dealer is required--and most will do so immediately--to report suspicious purchases by possible straw purchasers or others, like guys with out of state plates wanting buttloads of weapons and ammo. Transporting said goods across state lines for sale is also prohibited.

              "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

              by happy camper on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:46:34 PM PST

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              •  But its not out of state, perhaps I missed there (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                happy camper, gerrilea

                The person goes down, meets someone who lives there already, this proxy purchase happens not at the show but later after the show.

                This happens, often, I know this because I have personally known people in gangs and how they acquire their weapons.

                Hell I've seen the trunks full of weapons.

                And they are supposed to report it, but they very often do not.

                --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

                by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:54:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Ohh and thank you for the discussion (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea, Joy of Fishes, rockhound

          Its why I love it here, finding level headed people to talk sanely about hot topics

          --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

          by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 12:03:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  No absolutes is the key to getting more control (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      idbecrazyif, Joy of Fishes

      I have a license to carry a concealed weapon and I carry one.  It's part of a job.  The why of it is a long story, and I am not going to go into it here.  Suffice to say, my police chief came to me to request that I carry more firepower and sent his armorer to my home to sell me a gun from the PD at it's cost, with extra clips, that was compatible with the weapons the Department carried.  He wanted to be sure that I was not going to sell it, and he demanded that I show up far more often at the range.  He said that when I was with his officers in a "situation" I was not expected to be a spectator and I damn well better be able to hit what I was aiming at.  It hasn't been a decade since the last couple of guys tried to kill me.  While I am not typical, I am an example of why a ban won't work.  

      It's also worth noting that in my rural town, almost every home has a gun - often more than one.  We use them in perfectly normal ways.  For example, I have used mine to shoot a rabid animal.  While the term "pig sticker" refers to a large knife carried for the purpose of killing and bleeding one's pig, most of the guys I know kill their hogs with a pistol.  Among other things, it's more humane and safer for all concerned.  I have run off a 2 year old bull moose who was giving every indication that he thought he and I should fight (it was during the rut; believe me, he was dangerous).  I can think of a bear I ran off that might have gone away anyway, but it was a comfort to know that if he thought he had an alternative to running away, I had an alternative to being mauled.  In short, they are a tool in common usage the presence of which generally does make us safer.

      At the same time, I take your point that this sanguine view of gun ownership seems confined to those not facing the sort of violence you describe on the South Side of Chicago (and indeed in cities all over the country).  There is little doubt that far more people see guns the way you do than the way I do, which is why rural gun owners get defensive rather quickly when the subject of gun control comes up, I think.  But while I know lots of NRA'ers, I am noticing a general acceptance of the notion that continuing to deny that we have a significant national violence problem involving guns is putting a cap on a growing pressure, the results of which are always a far more destructive result than would be the case if the pressure is bled away before a rupture.  

      The key to getting a meaningful conversation about how to get the widespread mis-use of guns under some control is to avoid the absolutes that prevent it.  The NRA's absolutist position is poisonous - but that is probably viewed as a feature not a bug by its leaders, if not its members.  Similarly, those urging a total ban are equally effectively poisoning the public discourse, and I suspect some of that is also on purpose, if not quite so venal.  So, I applaud your call for closing no more than the gun show loophole.  It seems to me to be unarguable that many if not most of those involved are actually engaged in a commercial retail transaction, not a variety of home sales.  

      Assuming your position carries the day, what about those home sales?  I can see a natural transition from one to the other.  However, that seems to me to be a far more difficult case to make.  For example, I transferred a pistol to my son last summer (not the one I got from the PD).  I would object to any attempt to have that regulated like a retail transaction.  Like my comments above, an avoidance of absolutes and a statement of limitations to the scope of proposed regulations is key to having them in the first place.

      •  Why couldn't this be the national conversation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        salmo

        we are having?

        I wish there were more people like yourself, but as you said the extremes poison the well and it is often those extremes who really get the most air time. I especially like this portion

        But while I know lots of NRA'ers, I am noticing a general acceptance of the notion that continuing to deny that we have a significant national violence problem involving guns is putting a cap on a growing pressure, the results of which are always a far more destructive result than would be the case if the pressure is bled away before a rupture.
        You are absolutely correct, something has to give eventually and often the end result is worse than had we sat down and addressed it.

        As for the home sales, to be honest? I have no clue. Perhaps its time we started thinking smart and using technology for weapons?

        Things like finger locking, RFID, etc.. Make some hurdles so that its not incredibly difficult to transfer a weapon before one person and another but enough of a hurdle that its not profitable to all but the most dedicated trafficker who has clients that will obtain a gun regardless of law no matter what.

        I am not so naive to think that your hard core drug runners are always going to arm themselves, thats obvious. But your lowly thugs, or disgruntled teens, etc.. The hurdle needs to be a bit higher.

        --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

        by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 01:43:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You're funny. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishbone

      You have all these wild, numberless hypotheses about how firearms migrate from retail to criminals but you overlook the most obvious one: there's nearly 300 million firearms out there on the secondary market.

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