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View Diary: It is NOT GUNS! (215 comments)

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  •  Do you really think Jordan Davis would be dead (18+ / 0-)

    if his assailant had not had a gun ?

    Yes, there are many problems with American society in terms of poverty and the lack of really good mental health care for all who need it, and Americans do need to work to fix them, but having a gun makes it much more likely that momentary irritation is going to turn into bloodshed and death.

                           Just my two cents,

    Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

    by Chacounne on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 10:34:15 AM PST

    •  No, see (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      oldliberal, WakeUpNeo, Mark Mywurtz

      Everyone who kills anyone is perfectly rational, and 100% set on killing that person so if they couldn't get a gun they would use a knife, bat, poison, car or lethal wit to kill them.  No one ever just fires a shot at someone in a moment of sheer rage.  No one ever forgets their gun is loaded while cleaning it.  No children ever find daddy's gun and have it go off while playing with it.  No one ever shoots some "intruder" who turns out to be a teenager sneaking home at night.  

      Once you assume all these things away, then you can believe that reducing the number of guns around would do nothing to reduce the number of people dying violent/accidental deaths with guns.

    •  Dumb question. (0+ / 0-)

      If you're asking would a particular event have taken place absent a vital component to its occurrence, then obviously the answer is no.  That's a question to ask people with time machines, not policy makers.

      •  It is not a dumb question (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        and the kid would not have died when he did if the idiot who shot him didn't have a gun.  

        •  So build a time machine. (0+ / 0-)
          •  You are simply proving my point (0+ / 0-)

            that guns are a problem.  Their existence leads to more dead and maimed people. Stupid comment on your part.

            Power to the Peaceful!

            by misterwade on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 06:24:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  How? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              How am I proving it?  Lay out the argument.  Start with the premises and use some set of logical operators to arrive at a conclusion.

              •  like this (0+ / 0-)

                I say kid in car with loud music would still be alive if killer did not have a gun. You say "So build a time machine," implying that if I could build a time machine we could change a variable (presence of gun in a situation where tempers flared), kid could still be alive.  I say yes, point proven.  

                We all know that guns aren't going away or even likely to have any sort of meaningful regulation on them in our society. But if they did go away, there would be much less senseless killing.  

                And you are going to say "South Africa (conveniently leaving out all the other countries that don't have guns and have very low murder rates).  Your arguments are pathetic and wrong.  I'm done with you.

                Power to the Peaceful!

                by misterwade on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 07:13:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  There's only one variable? (0+ / 0-)

                  You've got a time machine.  Wouldn't it be safer to intervene in some way that doesn't involve you trying to take the killer's gun away?  Say...warning him before the reception that he might want to stay away from a particular gas station that night?

                  I congratulate you walking through your reasoning, so I'll simply reiterate the fatal flaw--your assumption that there is only one variable--and leave it at that.

                  I don't know why you're randomly pulling out the international comparison nonsense.

            •  Guns are not a problem. (4+ / 0-)

              Criminal use of guns is a problem.

              By the Collision of different Sentiments, Sparks of Truth are struck out, and political Light is obtained. - Benjamin Franklin

              by oldpunk on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 06:33:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Excuse me ? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Talking about the conditions that made a crime possible with an eye to preventing it from happening is not "dumb", it is what an intelligent society asks itself when a crime happens.

                        Just my two cents,

        Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

        by Chacounne on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 06:08:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  A physically fit football player has no means.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      of killing other than a gun?

      Police everywhere will want your study results....

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