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View Diary: Concealed Carry and Irrational Fear (127 comments)

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  •  Gee, I thought you were going to remind (0+ / 0-)

    me that some bears swim -- polar bears!  To which I would have to say, lol, point taken.  

    Listen, I don't agree with you about the majority of folks who have conceal carry permits. I know a number of folks (men and women) who do, in a state where conceal carry permits are severely limited (Massachusetts), and other than my friends who are law enforcement officers, none of the others has a "rational" reason for conceal carry except an overriding sense of personal physical insecurity or doom, or just as a lark.  

    Mysterious stories about "real" and regular on-going situations that would end in death were it not for a private conceal carry are great stories but are not supportable for the majority of carry permits, because they cannot be proven even if you cull all the murdered and extrapolate and say they all would have lived had they had conceal carry weapons, and then multiply by 23 to get to 400,000 - 500,000 deaths that happen because of heart attack per year to refute EV's AED argument.

    Frankly the only way to refute EV's argument is to concede EV's narrow construction of the argument but argue a different and more factually compelling one.  But you still haven't.  You still are suggesting some horrible that might happen that causes one to need to carry a weapon without proving that the situation warrants a conceal carry to protect you from high probability of death, not simply from a "fear" of harm.

    I realize we are not going to change each others minds about this, and I am going to bed now because I am old, but I want to thank you for the enjoyable conversation, and for putting up with me.  I recognize that I am sometimes a pill. Best regards to you.

    "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

    by Uncle Moji on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 09:31:21 PM PST

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    •  Not so. (0+ / 0-)
      Frankly the only way to refute EV's argument is to concede EV's narrow construction of the argument but argue a different and more factually compelling one.
      Why in the world would one want to concede an inappropriate construction?
      Listen, I don't agree with you about the majority of folks who have conceal carry permits.
      Agree with what? As far as I remember, the only thing I have offered on that subject is:
      People carry guns to prevent others from doing them harm, and are not dependent on someone else to use the weapon properly.
      I don't see how that statement is particularly untrue, regardless of any other personal foibles of anyone who obtains a carry permit.
      You still are suggesting some horrible that might happen that causes one to need to carry a weapon without proving that the situation warrants a conceal carry to protect you from high probability of death, not simply from a "fear" of harm.
      Not at all. I am suggesting that personal circumstances will always be just that: personal to an individual. National statistics are meaningless in individual cases. Basing an entire argument on aggregate statistics is foolish.

      People's perceptions of their own circumstances will affect the rationality of their decision-making process; whether a person is actually at higher risk of attack is irrelevant, if their circumstances are such as to make them reasonably believe they are - at which point, their decision to carry a weapon is entirely rational.

      Personal anecdote has apparently been forbidden in this diary, so I will offer a hypothetical instead:

      A woman separates from her husband. He threatens her life, and does so credibly - although he has no actual intention of carrying through with the threat. In reality, she is in no danger from her husband.

      But she has a reasonable reason to believe that her life is in danger from him, and makes an entirely (from her perspective) rational decision to arm herself.

      The diarist argues that she has no rational reason to carry a gun.

      Carrying a weapon is not a rational choice based on evaluating all the potential hazards that we face on a day-to-day basis.  If that was the case, we'd all be carrying portable defibrillators. But we don't, because it isn't rational--just as carrying a gun around all the time isn't rational. The Supreme Court has ruled you can bear arms...but that doesn't make it rational.

      The gun is a safety blanket to ward off remote dangers, no more, perhaps even less, rational than carrying around a AED all the time.

      At no time does he allow for the possibility that carrying a weapon can be a rational decision, and advances nonsense about aggregate statistics to support his argument.

      It's a stupid argument.

      Sleep well.

      •  And I am going to bed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Uncle Moji

        With this last comment.  In the last quote I wrote "carrying a gu around ALL THE TIME isn't rational". Elsewhere I used the word "constantly"  I think it is clear that I am talking about the folks who make it a life choice, not those who are choosing to carry for specific reasons for limited periods of time.

        It strikes me that you are accepting that, collectively, there is little reason to carry a gun constantly.  Rather you are saying that there are individual cases where it makes sense...and that last point is true.  But my point is this...it cannot both be true that the majority of folks carry around a gun for little gain and that the majority of folks who carry a gun do it for legitimate, rational reasons.  To phrase it bluntly, only a minority carry guns out of rational fear..the majority carry guns based out of irrational fear.

        Simple rule, unless you have a specific person who has threatened you, if you carry a gun constantly, you are likely doing it out of irrational fear.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 10:25:48 PM PST

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      •  Good morning! Thank you for your (0+ / 0-)

        thoughtful reply.  I hope you slept well, as well, and are enjoying your day.

        I would suggest that by your measure, anyone who "believes" he or she is at risk is acting "rationally" by the constant carry of a concealed weapon.  The reliance on the individual to make that determination is troubling, because the result of a mistake in that thinking can be fatal to another, perhaps innocent American.  

        A paranoid person or a person undergoing a transient trauma, may believe that they are "thinking and acting" in a "rational" way when they believe any or all or some or one person poses a lethal threat to them - this does not make it objectively "rational", it makes it a subjective belief which may or may not be grounded in fact or in reality.  

        Let's say your hypothetical woman is approached by a man in a dark parking lot and shoots and kills him because she "believes" it was her husband or any man who poses a lethal risk to her based on her husband's threats.  What if that man is you or your son or your father who was simply asking for directions?

        Since 2007 nearly 500 innocent people have been murdered by mistake by persons with conceal carry weapons.  So that's about 100 innocent persons per year (including law enforcement officers).  The persons who killed these 500 innocent people believed that they had a "rational" reason for their conceal carry and made a choice to discharge their weapons at a person who turns out to be innocent of any of those "rational" reasons.  

        Of those conceal carry murderers, only about 15 were deemed legally mentally incompetent.   The rest, I would guess, would fall into your  justified-by-personal circumstance "rational" category however wrong you and they ultimately turned out to be.

        Just because you call it "rational" doesn't make it "rational."  

        Let me be clear, I do support private ownership of guns, I allow hunting on my land by friends and neighbors, and there are guns in my household. However, EV's point about constant conceal carry has yet to be refuted by a reasoned or "rational" argument, as far as I can see.  There is one comment in this diary about a fellow who conceal carries his weapon even in his mother's garden.  Not sure how big the moles are there, but I doubt a concealed handgun is the most "rational" choice for a weapon or for practical garden wear.  

        "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

        by Uncle Moji on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 07:04:59 AM PST

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