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View Diary: Syria: Obama's moves Assad's "red line" back as SOHR reports 42,000 dead! (48 comments)

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  •  What we should have done (1+ / 0-)
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    Fire bad tree pretty

    is realize there were elements of the regime and the opposition that both wanted to advance the country. We should have worked with both of them to better the nation.

    Instead, we worked with some very vile self-serving assholes that were more interested in telling us what we wanted to hear than actually caring about their nation.

    •  I was rather under the impression (1+ / 0-)
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      We haven't been working with anyone particularly effectively. As for elements in the regime wanting to advance the nation, I find that not particularly credible.   This has been a ruthless minority regime for quite some time.   The aftermath was never going to be pretty

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 09:29:31 PM PST

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    •  There was no way of doing that, (2+ / 0-)
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      subtropolis, Quicklund

      it rarely or never has been done as you suggest, it's too late now, and personalities don't matter at this point.

      None of your arguments cuts.  Any government that succeeds the Assads will be (roughly) center Rightist de facto and have to use some violent means to put down/keep down Assad loyalist reactionaries, ex-military Rightists, and violent Left-conservative anarchists of some stripe or another.  Center Rightists are self-centered.  

      What matters is breaking the monopoly of power, of getting the leftward trending of power to the Left and Center, outside the hardcore Right of Syria, going.  The country has plenty of problems it will have to deal with, dictators rarely solving any and often worsening most existing ones while they reign.

      •  You have no (1+ / 0-)
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        understanding of the elements that you are dealing with. The fact that you try to fit this into western political labels shows that you have no understanding of the sectarian matrix that overlies the political spectrum and just how dangerous it is to secular Muslims and non-Muslim minorities.

        •  How about you write a diary (0+ / 0-)

          laying it all out as you see it, with evidence, and then you can go and impose your PC in the comments there.  Will I see sentences on the order of "The Alawites, having clean hands, will...." or "The Christians, having set a couragous and compelling moral example,....." in such a piece of writing?  Maybe it could also discuss the provenance of the nerve gas Assad has.  

          The Syrian ethno-religious dispute is not going to get settled during this phase of the war, so I left it out.  I assume the Kurdish region remains autonomous, most Christians will ultimately flee, and it's possible the heavily Alawite coastal region gets partitioned off.  None of which is germane to the topic I addressed of devolution of power.

    •  Yes, mickT, finally we get to your money shot! (2+ / 0-)
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      winsock, Asak

      March 2011 Peaceful protesters went out and demonstrated in massive numbers in many cities in Syria to demand change and more freedoms from their government.

      They were met with Assad's gun fire.

      I can't believe how long they were peaceful for. You only have to shoot at me once, but they took it for months, for months. before they started picking up the gun in self defense.

      Now 22 months and 42,000 dead Syrian's later you are still arguing that the Assad regime still has good Nazis in it:

      there were elements of the regime and the opposition that both wanted to advance the country
      By the time that Assad is dropping cluster bombs loaded with napalm, sending mortar rounds into play grounds, shelling people queuing up for bread and loading up the sarin, I have to think any Syrian who "wanted to advance the country" has left this regime already.

      Hell, even the FM spokesman deflected this week.

      And you want the people who are still standing with Assad to be part of the solution? I want them to be part of the custodies.

      You do realize that the main force the Assad regime is fighting is precisely people who parted with the old regime, don't you?

      That's who makes up the rank and file of the FSA, SAA soldiers that deflected. Sure there are a good number of activist soldiers but they don't tend to we well trained or effective. The core of the FSA, at all levels, are former Assad soldiers that put it all on the line to see their country on a better path.

      But like Assad, you are prepared to ignore these two sources of fighters and focus on a third, smaller group of fighters because there you can push the Islamiphobia buttoms.

      For sure, many other Arabs and Muslims have come to the aid of the Syrian people at this time. The main question I have is why haven't others?

      Why hasn't the Left, as with the Spanish Civil War?

      And sure, this essentially political struggle has taken on religious tones. Its really not all that unusual that an oppressed people fighting for freedom couch their struggle in religious terms.

      I don't recall anyone, at least on the Left, trying to scandalize the Civil Rights movement because clerics played such a big role in leading it. Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., Rev. Ralph Abernathy, Rev. Jesse Jackson and so on. But they were at least Christian clerics, so that made them less suspect, and the prays and chants and songs that premeditated the movement. They were Christian too, even if Southern, so that was still acceptable.

      But now that Malcolm X, he was immediately branded as a bad guy, because he was a Muslim. And when Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali, they took away his title and tried to send him to jail.

      Islamaphobia runs deep in Western culture. Assad knows that, and apparently so do you because you both seek to stoke these fears of al Qaeda and Islamic extremists as the main reason we should allow Assad to continue this slaughter.

      This diary really isn't about that but you can't help but bring that into the discussion, can you?

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Fri Dec 07, 2012 at 11:17:59 PM PST

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    •  I wouldn't have supported (0+ / 0-)

      that at the time (in fact I think I remember explicitly rejecting that idea) but now it seems to me that that is the only way out of the situation right now unless we want to see more deaths. Many of the democrats I know in Syria are turning against the revolution, more fearful from the Islamists than they are from the regime.

      I'm am also very fearful of the Islamists in Syria right now. Not just for what they are doing in Syria and what their goals are, but also for what happens after Syria. I come from a town just outside Tripoli (Lebanon) and I know that there are Salafis there who are waiting for the 'revolution' in Syria  to overthrow Bashar so that they can start the battle to take over Lebanon. I really fear their broader regional agenda.

    •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

      Just went to read more on Syria and found Bob Baer agrees with you in Time:

      Now that we’ve violated the iron law of covert action — that when there’s no oversight, money and weapons end up in the wrong hands — it’s time to change course. I’d recommend sitting down with all the players in the region, including Iran, to figure out how to cauterize the mess. And in case I haven’t made my point, blindly dumping more arms into the Middle East isn’t going to solve anything.

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