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  •  Similarly, lawn darts kill people... (18+ / 0-)

    They're now banned in the US.  Toys with lead in them are also generally illegal.  Asbestos insulation in new buildings is also illegal.  New cars without airbags are also illegal.

    A risk/benefit decision when banning unsafe products has to be made.  Guns are clearly unsafe products.  The question is are the benefits worth it?

    •  Yeah... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn, PavePusher

      ...we're really abiding that one.  Hell, I'm going to toss a lawn dart right now just to rub it in.

    •  Flying Goat: car airbags kill people (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PavePusher

      too. I therefore refuse to buy anything new enough to have to have one.

      It's an explosive device inches from your face, and the Federal Government says you MUST have it there. How effed up is that?

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

      by BlackSheep1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 10:11:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Indeed...but as I said... (0+ / 0-)

        It was decided that the benefits are worth it.  They save more lives than they end.

        A similar argument could, of course, be made for guns.  But arguing that the fact that a product causes deaths, intentionally or not, is completely irrelevant to whether or not that product should be legal is pretty ludicrous, and is basically arguing against all product safety legislation.

        •  why completely irrelevant? (0+ / 0-)

          Seriously.

          Having a detonator in your steering wheel is ok for everybody, but responsible people keeping and bearing arms is not?

          Logic fail.

          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

          by BlackSheep1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 11:17:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why completely irrelevant? Huh? (0+ / 0-)

            That's what hmi seemed to be arguing, in the post I was responding to.  It's also what you seem to be arguing as well.  "Air bags can kill people, therefore, if airbags are legal, every single other product that can kill people should be legal, too."

            I'll point out that I have not been taking the opposite position ("Everything that can kill people should be banned").

            Try and use the detonator in your steering wheel to kill someone.  It's possible, but rather difficult.  In accidents, it has a net effect of reducing deaths.  I really don't get the parallel here, beyond the fact that decisions have to be made about potentially fatal products, based on how dangerous they are, and how important their use is / how many lives they save.

            •  well, we're not communicating. (0+ / 0-)

              So let's try seeing where the problem is.

              I posit one fact: The detonator in the steering wheel is very like the firearm: something has to happen before it goes off.

              Can we agree on that?

              LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

              by BlackSheep1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 12:40:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sure. (0+ / 0-)

                Also like a nuke, a light switch, a mine, and a nerve gas canister.

                •  Ok. So far, so good. People generally (0+ / 0-)

                  have some control over all these things, right?

                  LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                  by BlackSheep1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 05:25:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                    •  Can we also agree that if the airbag goes off, (0+ / 0-)

                      things are no longer properly under control?

                      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 10:12:57 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Depends on your meaning... (0+ / 0-)

                        Are you implying the airbag going off makes things no longer under control, or that when it goes off, things already are under control?

                        The latter is presumably pretty universally true.  The former would be true, if the latter weren't true.

                        Though you'd probably want to exclude controlled crash tests.

                        •  well, controlled crash tests are kinda like (0+ / 0-)

                          factory ballistics checks, for purposes of this discussion, I think.

                          I mean that if you are driving and the airbag goes off in your face something is not right.
                          It's about to be, probably, much more not right.
                          You may or may not have had control prior to the thing going off, but having the thing go off in your face pretty much stops you driving, at
                          least for the duration of your contact with the bag and recovery therefrom ... which can last as long as a minute, which means you're a long way downrange from where you were before it went off...

                          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:09:44 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  We can also agree that your chances of (0+ / 0-)

                            maintaining control of the general situation usually improve if the thing doesn't go off?

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:08:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That I'm not so sure of... (0+ / 0-)

                            With a broken neck, or passed out, you have less control than with an airbag in front of your face.

                          •  Mmm. but the airbag can also knock you cold (0+ / 0-)

                            and by the time the airbag finishes deflating, it might be beyond fixing anyhow. Wrecks tend to get over with quickly, but sometimes the actual wreck is just the beginning of the problem.

                            We are not arguing yet, are we?

                            So, we're in agreement that before the detonator goes off or the primer fires, the two potentially dangerous objects are serving, if passively, purposes not detrimental to human survival?

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:31:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not sure... (0+ / 0-)

                            Have any statistical evidence that mere possession of a firearm makes conflict more likely?  Or correspondingly, that people are more likely to deliberately run into trees if they have airbags?

                            Airbags could even make the worst drivers more likely to hit more pedestrians before they themselves either start driving more safely, or end up unable to drive.

                          •  Or statistical evidence against either (0+ / 0-)

                            possibility, of course.

                          •  Nope. So now we've reached a point of (0+ / 0-)

                            genuine agreement. I have no evidence that having an airbag in the car makes a driver more wreck-prone, and no evidence that just possession of a firearm makes a person more likely to use it.

                            That said, when I'm actively possessing mine, I'm either headed for the range, the field, or somewhere afterward to clean the weapon(s) for storage.

                            So I tend to think -- and bear in mind that I include in this experience my time in the military -- that possession is not the same thing as (mis)use.

                            Local news highlighting the year's first ice-related traffic death. Late-model car, predawn commute. Indicates to me that a lot -- maybe almost all -- of effective safety boils down to proper training, preparation, and responsible behavior -- no matter what dangerous object we're discussing.

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:41:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree... (0+ / 0-)

                            Though I think:

                            1)  There are a lot of careless people out there.
                            2)  There are a lot of irresponsible people out there.
                            3)  Careful, responsible people can be careless at times.
                            4)  Responsible, careful people can be irresponsible at times.

                            It only takes once...

                            My belief remains - it's reasonable to ban products that result in needless injuries / deaths, if the benefits aren't worth it.  I have yet to argue that they aren't worth it for guns - I honestly don't know, and it's impossible to prove with statistics.  Even an experiment, if it were possible, wouldn't necessarily give clear results - suppose successful suicide rate was decreased, but there were more robberies (Erm...By professional criminals connected to a massive underground network of gun smugglers?), how would that all add up?  But I do think it's something reasonable to discuss (As was my original point).

                          •  Thanks for the thoughtful discussion ... (0+ / 0-)

                            I tend to think that so long as the irresponsible and the careless continue to be the ones we hear about, there will be folk who think guns are inherently more unsafe than any other inanimate object.

                            But the key to irresponsible and careless people lies in training and discipline -- if not on their part, on the part of careful and responsible people, even those who choose to be armed only with situational awareness.

                             Some lessons do make us learn them the hard way, don't they?

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 08:37:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

      •  To be fair, car bags in the US kill people. (0+ / 0-)

        Other countries have better/safer air bags that don't kill people. Now why don't we have those? Could it be the same reason we don't have safe guns? Lobbies?

        Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature.

        by ZenTrainer on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 04:19:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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