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  •  ok... that was an anti-biking rant (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sponson, FiredUpInCA, splashy

    What the heck?  You go on for half a paragraph about drivers being idiots ... and then say that cyclists are putting everyone at risk?  In your world is everyone supposed to take public transit?

    Look gun control - I'm for gun control. Not banning guns (deer hunting, yay!) but gun control targeted at the right weapons, areas and situations.  This gun fetish has us accepting the erosion of the first amendment (free speech "zones?" seriously??) to the point where you can carry a gun to any given event much more easily than you can protest it with free speech.

    But back to the cycling.  I agree with you about the sheer number of traffic accidents as an epidemic, but every bike accident I've ever had was the fault of the driver. Being turned in front of in traffic (no turn signal, across 2 lanes) and being doored. The cause of those accidents is the behavior you complained about at the top of your paragraph, NOT the "fucking idiots who...ride their bikes".

    •  that wasn't an anti biking rant (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pete Cortez, glorificus, oldpunk

      i barely mentioned bikes while trying to illustrate that there are things, such as bad drivers, that cause serious injury and death at an alarmingly high rate that are ignored by the left while they chase after bright and shiny gun control.  

      i get it.  the left have their emotional wedge issues just like the right have their emotional wedge issues.  it gives them their emotional fix to get all worked up about it. meanwhile everyone else gets to endure the unending fights that either go nowhere and waste time and money or go to some extreme that causes problems for everyone and has to be fixed.  it's annoying.

      as for bikers who are fucking idiots and ride in the middle of 6 lane traffic... i don't know about the instances that you have gotten into accidents, but i live in a big biking city and every single day i drive across town and see at least a dozen instances of bikers breaking the law in ways that put not only themselves but everyone around them at risk of an accident.  i list them along with automobile drivers who are idiots while on the road.  i'm not singling them out.

      although, i do think bikers are a unique risk in traffic.  they can't keep up with traffic.  they are very difficult to see in traffic a lot of the time.  they fall down because of pot holes unless they are always focusing on the ground in front of them and then they aren't attentive of the cars around them.  honestly, most i encounter don't pay attention past their own goddamn nose.  just like automobile drivers.

      and they have this mix of wanting to be treated like a car but also wanting to be treated like a pedestrian crossing a crosswalk and given the right away.  hell, most i encounter zip between cars with the same kind of finger crossed stupidity of a person running across six lanes of traffic because they don't want to walk to the crosswalk 30 feet away and wait for the light.  

      and they drift back and forth in and out of a lane when they are supposed to be riding to the side (even when there are bike lanes).  or ride with no hands or while holding a fucking cell phone and texting.

      but most of all, my beef with bikers, and i used to be one, is that they don't just put themselves at risk on the road.  they put everyone around them at risk.  most accidents are caused by drivers who don't give themselves and others a margin for error.  they drive too close or too fast and when someone makes a mistake or some outside force causes them to lose control (like a flat tire) there is no buffer to handle the situation before a colliding with someone (or something) occurs.  now throw a biker into that mix and someone is probably going to die.

      for example: a biker drifts over into the lane in front of a car.  the car swerves to avoid the biker.  the biker doesn't get hurt, but the car that swerved caused the truck in the lane next to them to swerve too and they collide with someone.  the biker rides away with a look back breathing a sigh of relief that they weren't on the side of the road that the accident behind them just happened in.

      you know, my wife was at a cross walk once and the light hadn't turned but the lady next to her, who was crossing the other way, told her just to go, because the cars have to stop for her anyway.  my wife told the lady that just because they have to stop doesn't mean they will and she's not going to win an argument with them about it after she's dead.  this was after my wife was almost hit by cars at the crosswalk numerous times within a matter of weeks.  i bring it up, because i stopped biking in traffic because i realized that i don't win an argument with a car over my right of way after i am dead from being hit.  i don't know what keeps other bikers from realizing the same thing.  them again, i don't what keeps people from going to a bar by themselves when they know they are going to probably try to drive home drunk and are too drunk to realize they shouldn't.  but it happens every day and people die because of it.

      my experience is that modest gun control is neccessary, but singling out guns as some great danger to society is misguided.  but, you know, gun control is a hell of a lot simpler to argue about than traffic.  i mentioned canada above and how they have 5 years in a row of 2,300 hit and runs in BC and that was after a 5 year campaign to get people to drive and walk safer.  they spent a ton of money and nothing has changed.  it's very sad.

      so long and thanks for all the fish

      by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 12:45:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "That wasn't an anti biking rant; THIS is an..." (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gramofsam1, Mindful Nature, splashy

        ...anti-biking rant," apparently.

        Your generalizations about cyclists hit a nerve with me  And to wrap this back into gun control, I'd love to come up with a bunch of sentences about gun owners that generalize the way yours did about cyclists. I modified some of your sentences above, with that goal in mind"

        **They leave their guns out in reach of children when they are supposed to be locking up the unloaded guns. Or they hold the gun while holding a fucking cell phone and texting.

        **but most of all, my beef with gun owners, and i used to be one, is that they don't just put themselves at risk.  they put everyone around them at risk.  most accidents are caused by gun owners who don't give themselves and others a margin for error.

        **for example: a gun owner points a gun inside a car.  the occupant instinctively moves to avoid a gun barrel pointed at him.  the gun owner doesn't get hurt, but the 7-year old that moved dislodges the parking brake and the car rolls into traffic.  The gun owner walks away with a look back breathing a sigh of relief that they didn't pull the trigger by mistake when they were getting in.

        **i stopped carrying a gun in public because i realized that i don't win an argument with a gun over mechanical failures, dropping it, being careless, after i am dead from being hit (by a bullet).  i don't know what keeps other gun owners from realizing the same thing.  them again, i don't what keeps people from going to a bar by themselves when they know they are going to probably try to drive home drunk and are too drunk to realize they shouldn't.  but it happens every day and people die because of it.

        Every single time a cyclist is injured or killed in traffic, the trolls come out in the comments section in every major city newspaper, and start second-guessing or saying the cyclist is at fault.  A great illustration of this is here, and this kind of response is typical whenever cyclists come up in public discussion.

        •  I meant to add, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gramofsam1

          that this is why I'm so sad to see this same anti-cyclist, "if you get dead on the road on a bike it's your own damn fault" dreck show up here on dKos.

        •  easy solution (0+ / 0-)

          register all guns.  If anyone dies with a gun registered to you, life sentence.  Strict liability.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 09:32:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon, rockhound, Joieau, oldpunk

            I am not responsible for the actions of criminals.  Period.  End.  Dot.

            Unless you want to extend that law to ALL personal property...?  Then at least you'd be consistent.

            •  Don't like it (0+ / 0-)

              keep your gun locked up.

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 11:32:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You can not make me a criminal by fiat/proxy. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon, Wordsinthewind, oldpunk

                Pound sand, totalitarian.

                •  behave responsibly (0+ / 0-)

                  and there'll be no problem.  endanger the rest of society and expect consequences.  That's the law that applies to much of the rest of society, so it's time for the gun lobby to become adults and take responsibility for their actions.

                  Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                  by Mindful Nature on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 12:04:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And there's the thing. (4+ / 0-)

                    Gun owners do take responsibility for their actions -- their own actions, not the actions of criminals.

                    A law-abiding, responsible gun-owner does not endanger the rest of society just by being a gun-owner.

                    If they are negligent or intentionally break the law?  Yes, they should be held accountable for their actions.

                    If they do not become negligent or intentionally break the law?  They should not be held accountable for the actions of others.

                    I mean, that's how we treat everything else.  We don't take away driver's licenses from those who do not drive under the influence of alcohol just because someone else does.

                    That would just be silly...

                    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                    by theatre goon on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 12:31:23 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not strictly true (0+ / 0-)

                      if you are a shipper of, say, dangerous chemicals, and something goes wrong, one can be strictly liable for the harm without a showing of negligence because the action was inherently dangerous.  Since guns are commensurately dangerous, there needs to be a heightened standard of care here.

                       Certainly, if your gun gets stolen because it wasn't locked away, then the gun owner should be negligently liable for whatever crime is committed with it as a very foreseeable consequence.

                      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                      by Mindful Nature on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 01:09:48 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If a criminal has to break into my vehicle... (4+ / 0-)

                        or house, I've taken all the security precautions I need to morally and legally.  

                        Would you be responsible for any damages caused by a criminal who stole your kitchen knives?

                      •  Not at all true. (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        oldpunk, rockhound, Wordsinthewind
                        ...if you are a shipper of, say, dangerous chemicals, and something goes wrong, one can be strictly liable for the harm without a showing of negligence because the action was inherently dangerous.  Since guns are commensurately dangerous, there needs to be a heightened standard of care here.
                        Firearms are not directly comparable to dangerous chemicals.

                        Some chemicals are dangerous by their very existence, and require specialized containment or handling procedures.  They can harm people simply by existing, with no need for an outside agent to use them.

                        Guns are in no way analogous to that -- they are only dangerous if they are used by someone.  They don't, for instance, get up and shoot people on their own.  They require an outside agent -- a person -- to use them before they become dangerous.

                        Apples and oranges -- your comparison is completely invalid.

                        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                        by theatre goon on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 01:32:55 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  I do, your obvious insinuations not withstanding. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theatre goon, oldpunk

                    So do the vast majority of gun owners.  Something on the close order of 99.9%.

                    And those same laws already apply to gun owners.

                    How's that sand feel?  I bet it chaffs....

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