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View Diary: Never Cry Wolf - A Pack of Lies (188 comments)

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  •  Cool, of course (1+ / 0-)
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    bluedust

    This article is something of a he said, she said piece.   I will point out that in one instance, Mowat was correct and your diary isnt:  wolf diets are fairly board and include carrion and rodents in winter. See also this other study showing that rodents can make up an important part of the wolf diet..  

    Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

    by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 09:17:37 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  You should change your handle (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      frankzappatista

      It should be Argumentative Nature or something. You have no evidence, cite false sources, don't accept citations, have no experience and want us to believe what you say because you tell us you have a PhD in ecology.

      You're actually starting to irritate me.

      •  Did you check the links? (0+ / 0-)

        To the scientific literature on this topic?  These are false sources and no evidence?   Certainly you hWould not accept my say so just because I have training without sources to back up what I say, but I have provided these.    Others have not.   Which is why I am inclined to correct the record where it needs correcting.   Sorry that bothers you

        Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

        by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 10:22:45 AM PST

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        •  Point being disputed vs evidence presented (0+ / 0-)

          Marwat claimed that a large portion of a wolf's diet was small rodents. You believe this to be true and posted links to two scientific abstracts.

          The numbers in those links show that at no time of the year in Latvia, Estonia, or the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau does more than 24% of their diet come from carrion/small rodents, etc. Their diets are made up of 75% to 80% Cervids and Wild Boar in Lativia and Estonia and from 78% Yak and sheep in Qinghai-Tibet. The were more empty stomachs thatn stomachs with rodents. Your link didn't show anything except a sloppy and/or dishonest link. Nobody disputes wolves will eat anything, but the idea that they eat mice over caribou or eat old sick animals is stupid.  They prefer a cow or a calf just like me and have the guts to take on wild boar.

          They may eat small rodents, but they eat them the way I eat beef....when I have to.

          •  Well, let's see (0+ / 0-)

            In fact, our diarist disputes it:

            The greatest lie was that wolves live mostly on small rodents, when every wolf researcher in the world knows wolves eat large prey. Caribou, moose, elk, deer, even beaver for the rich fat supplies, but living on rodents, pure fiction.
            As these studies show, rodent can, in some instances, make up a significant portion of wolf diets.  So, pure fiction?  No, apprently not.  In fact, the only actual evidence presented here supports the general notion that scientists are aware that wolves do at times get substantial calories from rodents.  Do they eat more when other food sources are not present?  Certanly it's a reasonable notion given what we know, and the evidence is completely at odds with ban nock's completely unsupported idea that they do not.

            So, not sloppy or dishonest, but rather indeed it shows that wolf scientists are aware that this sort of thing can and does go on.

            Again, I'm sorry you don't like it when the science doesn't back you up.  If you have a study showing that northern wolves never eat rodents, please present it instead of casting insults.  Thanks

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 12:29:02 PM PST

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            •  please tell me you're kidding about the Phd (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kenevan McConnon, happy camper

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:58:49 PM PST

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              •  You do realize (0+ / 0-)

                that this link (to wikipedia?  Really?) contradicts your statement also:

                Although wolves primarily feed on medium to large sized ungulates, they are not fussy eaters. Smaller sized animals that may supplement the diet of wolves include marmots, hares, badgers, foxes, weasels, ground squirrels, mice, hamsters, voles and other rodents, as well as insectivores
                and
                Among flukes, the most common in North American wolves is Alaria, which infects small rodents and amphibians, which are eaten by wolves.
                Certainly, if the most common parasite among north american wolves is contracted by eating rodents and amphibians, that suggests that wolves, well, do eat rodents and amphibians.

                So, not sure where you were going with that, but yes, I have a PhD in population and community ecology (with an emphasis in population genetics and a sideline in climate change biology)

                Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:19:37 PM PST

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                •  Well you seem to get it that wolves eat large (3+ / 0-)

                  mammals, perhaps send an email to Farley, cause he found they were mice eaters and had no affect on caribou populations. Just spend their time being anthropomorphic with daisies in the sun and frolicking when they aren't being noble and trustworthy and loving and tearing each other up out of general cussedness.

                  I'm having a hard time with the Phd stuff.

                  How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                  by ban nock on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:29:14 PM PST

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                  •  Did he? (0+ / 0-)

                    I never read any of his research papers, but from what I recall he asked the question of what they eat when caribou aren't around and concluded that rats contribute to their diet which is a finding that seems borne out by findings around the world on wolves.

                    As for the lovableness of wolves, I couuldn't comment, but certainly that seems odd.  They're top predators and would eat me given half a chance no doubt.

                    Maybe you don't interact with scientists all that much, I don't know, but scientific training is a useful thing to have.

                    Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                    by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:36:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Why do you come to Dailykos? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              happy camper

              This is a reality based community. You don't have to login to argue with a straw man; you can do that in your own head without bothering anyone else.

              •  Might take your own advice (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bluedust

                so far, I'm kind of the only one presenting evidence.  You want to stroll in here pushing things that don't quite hold water, you might expect a little correction now and then.

                yes, this is a reality based community.  I might recommend taht approach to you.

                Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:20:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nobody said wolves don't eat rodents (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  frankzappatista

                  We think Mowat made shit up and called it true including the claim that small rodents made up a LARGE part of wolves' diet.  This is bullshit.  You provided links that actually support the view that Mowat is full of shit and instead claim that they support Mowat.  I do the math for you and you respond with another straw man. Give it a break.

                  I sure hope you're a waiter; we don't need folks like you making progressives look bad. You're shit is Dick Morris stupid.

                  •  Right. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FishOutofWater, bluedust

                    you haven't done anything of the kind.  So far, our dear diarist did claim that wolves eating rodents is "pure fiction" which I demonstrated isn't true.  Yes, in those studies in those cases rodents made up a large, but not majority portion of the diet.  However, given that these animals are documented to eat rodents (and in fact apparently get parasites from them, per ban nock) it is hardly a stretch that a wolf on the tundra with no caribou might subsist on rats.  It is entirely consistent with the only data we have.  Neither of you have presented on scintilla of evidence to support the claim. Nothing

                    If you have data showing the seasonal course of dietary intake across the year in the canadian tundra, please put it forward.

                    As for the rest of Mowat's claims, I take no position whatsoever.  That's of coruse because I have no information that's relevant one way or the other.

                    Insults however do not constitute reasoned or rational argument.

                    Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                    by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:40:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  More empty stomachs than rodents (0+ / 0-)

                      It isn't that hard to understand unless you want something else to be true. I read the abstracts and they support what I know about wolves and lynx and what they eat.  You are trying to smash the data so that it supports your conclusions about Mowat and the shit he made up. Either construct an honest argument or move on.

                      •  ok. (0+ / 0-)

                        there's no convincing the true ideologue.  Yes, wolves do get empty stomachs sometimes.  This is utterly irrelevant.  It is DEMOSTRATED FACT that they also eat rodents, frequently in large quantities.  So far we've got zero evidence for any other state of affairs.

                        Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                        by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:15:14 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Was Mowat full of shit? (0+ / 0-)

                          It's an easy question and the diarist has presenteded evidence to back his assertion. You have nothing except a scientific article that backs Ban Nock. What is it that you are doing? It seems like you are trolling a diary to me.

                          •  Probably (0+ / 0-)

                            he cited to a Salon.com article that describes someone (Goddard) who contests Mowat's assertions.  He's probably right.

                            Ban nock never presented any evidence on the biology at issue, and what I presented demonstrates that Ban nock's comment that it is complete fiction that wolves eat rodents is false.

                            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                            by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:37:24 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Read what Ban Nock wrote again (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tom Seaview

                            "The greatest lie was that wolves live mostly on small rodents, when every wolf researcher in the world knows wolves eat large prey. Caribou, moose, elk, deer, even beaver for the rich fat supplies, but living on rodents, pure fiction."

                            You are arguing with a straw man of your own constrction and the two scientific abstracts you linked support Ban Nock. Please give it a break. You're wrong.

                          •  please (0+ / 0-)

                            indicate ANY evidence for this assertion:

                            , but living on rodents, pure fiction."

                            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                            by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:56:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yea the articles you linked (0+ / 0-)

                            Obviously they are supplementing or augmenting their diets with rodents, but they are not living on rodents any more than they are living on carrion or trash. When 75% of your diet is cervids and wild boar that is what youare "living o" on. Go argue with yourself. You don't like hunting and like ibeing argumentative. You should be embarrassed.

                            I can't help you until you want to help yourself.

                          •  very good (0+ / 0-)

                            Yes, that's in Tibet and Latvia, when there are cervids or boars available.

                            But what do you suppose happens when there are no cervids or boars around, and only rats?  I guess they just starve because Mowat is full of bullshit?

                            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                            by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:34:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This diary is bait (3+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            wordwraith, Kay Observer2, bluedust
                            Hidden by:
                            Kenevan McConnon

                            You and the diarist are pack hunting people who disagree with you.

                            The wolf killings in Yellowstone have nothing to do with Mowatt.

                            This diary is a cowardly attack on the diary on wolf killing on the Yellowstone boundary.

                            Cowardly.

                            If Ban Nock had an ounce of integrity he would directly criticize the diary on the wolf killing.

                            Instead he trolls this bait like a Montana rancher leaving prey kill just over the park boundary.

                            Disgusting.

                            Your argumentation is utterly disingenuous.

                            look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

                            by FishOutofWater on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:20:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bullshit (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kenevan McConnon, ban nock

                            Arguing from a fact based arena is always better than basing ideologies on fairy dust.

                            I read Never Cry Wolf and had no idea I was being snookered. It pisses me off to be lied to but I don't take it out on the person who points out the lie.

                            "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                            by high uintas on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 11:42:53 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Of course they eat rodents (4+ / 0-)

                          They also primarily eat elk in the context of Yellowstone:

                          Wolves in YNP feed primarily on elk, despite the presence of other ungulate species. Patterns of prey selection and kill rates in winter have varied seasonally each year from 1995 to 2004 and changed in recent years as the wolf population has become established. Wolves select elk based on their vulnerability as a result of age, sex, and season and therefore kill primarily calves, old cows, and bulls that have been weakened by winter. Summer scat analysis reveals an increased variety in diet compared with observed winter diets, including other ungulate species, rodents, and vegetation...

                          As most of our information on wolf kills comes from winter data, kill rates and prey selection are less known in summer. Current studies exploring this aspect of wolf predation are under way, but preliminary evidence indicates that wolf kill rates decrease as much as 25% in the summer (D. Smith and D. Stahler, Yellowstone Wolf Project, unpublished data). One indication of the seasonal differences in wolf foraging patterns is through an analysis of summer wolf scats. Scat analysis shows that summer diets are more diverse and include smaller prey species such as rodents, birds, and invertebrates, as well as ungulates, otherwise absent in the winter. Analyses of summer scats in 2003 show that mule deer was present in 133 (25%) of 530 scats analyzed. In addition, plant matter is prevalent in wolves' summer diet, with 392 (74%) of 530 scats analyzed containing some type of plant material, largely grass (Graminae).  http://jn.nutrition.org/...

                          I think we can all agree that wolves are adapted to hunt and eat primarily ungulates that are larger than they are, but are opportunistic and will eat what they can when stressed.   Seems a little off-topic since the diary is about Farley Mowatt.  What is not said, but what this diary is largely about, is how wolves should be managed - whether they should be managed according to ranchers and grazing interests, people who like to shoot predators, or the general public.

                           

                          “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

                          by ivorybill on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:21:14 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  you are close but not there as you can't mind read (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            happy camper, Tom Seaview

                            This post is about not using an emotional and scientifically untrue basis to manage wolves. The general public has been misinformed by polemicists such as Mowat who are willing to use information that is untrue to skew how we manage wildlife and predators in particular.

                            Wildlife management is dictated mostly by scientists, not ranchers, not uninformed lay people, not hunters or the HSUS.  Most states have a commission appointed by the legislature that makes decisions about wildlife informed by their scientists. Legislatures and commissions are influenced by publicity. For best outcomes I wish for scientists working at divisions of wildlife to dictate wildlife management as much as possible. They usually do a very good job if left to their own devices.

                            When a large number of people interested in wildlife have been misinformed it makes it very hard for scientists to do their work.

                            Wildlife management should be done by scientists guided by sound scientific principals.

                            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                            by ban nock on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 05:23:24 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

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