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View Diary: Guns. Lots of Guns! (301 comments)

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  •  So, all of those incidents... (5+ / 0-) which people successfully defend themselves or someone else with a firearm don't actually happen, in your world?

    Even the DoJ accepts the fact that firearms are used in self-defense, here in the real world.

    So, who was it again that needs to "get back to reality?"

    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

    by theatre goon on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:41:25 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  People win millions (0+ / 0-)

      in the lottery too, dude. You won't (even if you play).

      Again, you're more likely to shoot yourself in the foot than pull that thing in self-defense, or anybody else's. Your gun fight fantasy isn't going to happen.

      Do yourself and your loved ones a favor and get rid of that thing before somebody gets hurt.

      •  Funny how it doesn't happen... (4+ / 0-)

        ...any where nearly as often as you seem to think that it does.

        Well, I provided the information to you -- if you choose to ignore that information, it's your choice.

        My unasked-for advice?  Don't toss around lines like "get back to reality" when you are ignoring reality yourself.  It just makes you look silly.

        Have a lovely evening.

        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

        by theatre goon on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:05:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon

        You're two orders of magnitude more likely to defend yourself or someone else with a firearm than suffer an unintentional firearm injury.

        •  Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

          The American Journal of Epidemiology:

          "Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death...Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home."

          Here's another link from the Harvard School of Public Health referencing various studies which explain why such "self-defense" arguments are total crap:

          Again, when you super-hero wannabes purchase and carry guns under the fantasy that your going save somebody's life, you're actually putting yourself, your loved ones, and others in danger. I implore you, get rid of your firearms before somebody gets hurt.

          •  Not even wrong. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Your non-sequitur aside, which only shows an elevated increased odds ratio for gun owners (the absolute risk is negligible), you argued:

            you're more likely to shoot yourself in the foot than pull that thing in self-defense
            There are some 29700 unintentional firearms injuries a year.  Depending on how you count, there between 68000 and 2.5 million DGUs a year.

            Try and stay on topic.

            •  68000 to 2.5 million DGUs a year? (0+ / 0-)

              You've really narrowed it down there, Peter. The magnitude of the range alone (68,000 x 35 still doesn't get you to 2.5 million) shows that you have no idea how many DGUs take place each year. Also, the fact that there are less than half a million firearm-related crimes per year (as of 2008) further underscores how ridiculous those estimates are.

              Out of curiosity, does your fair-and-balanced pro-gun website include this article too ("The Gun Debate's New Mythical Number: How Many Defensive Uses Per Year?")? Or do you deem such information, referenced in my previous comment, off topic?

              Incidentally, there's nothing "negligible" about the risks of owning a gun:

              Based on a review of the available scientific data, Dr. Lippmann and co-authors conclude that the dangers of having a gun at home far outweigh the safety benefits. Research shows that access to guns greatly increases the risk of death and firearm-related violence. A gun in the home is twelve times more likely to result in the death of a household member or visitor than an intruder.

              Again, you're not doing yourself or anybody else any favors by owning and carrying a firearm

              •  I'll narrow it down for you. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                It's between 1 million and 2.5 million.  More on that later.  You also seem to forget that the 68,000 figure corresponds with the NCVS survey, which is the source for your half a million firearms-related victimizations.

                Hemenway reports his lit review results here.  And here's Kleck's response.

                In either case, using your own numbers your claim that "you're more likely to shoot yourself in the foot than pull that thing in self-defense" is an outright error.  Also, don't worry about my very many, many firearms.  You can't do anything about it.

                •  The fact that 68,000 is less than 500,000 (0+ / 0-)

                  does not mean that it corresponds with NCVS survey. For all I know, there are two DGUs per year, or 20, or 200...all numbers below 500,000.

                  How do you go from between 68,000 and 2.5 million to between 1 million and 2.5 million (still a ridiculously large range) in a matter of minutes while expecting to have any credibility on the subject? Again, less than 500,000 firearm-related crimes per year.

                  As Hemenway wrote:

                  In the K-G survey, many of those who report a self-defense gun use apparently see themselves as quite heroic. Were we to accept their claims, people using guns in self-defense are saving about 400,000 people each year from being murdered. Yet most people do not have guns and there were only a total of 27,000 homicides in 1992.

                  (I couldn't find a direct response from Kleck to these numbers beyond..."his critique serves the narrow political purpose of 'getting the estimate down,' for the sake of advancing the gun control cause." Sounds to me like Kleck's the advocate.)

                  •  68,000 offenses deterred. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Two (actually three) different surveys asking different questions.  

                    As Kleck responds:

                    He insists that the predominant bias surrounding DGU reports is a "social desirability response bias"[44] with RS making false reports of DGUs to present themselves as "heroic."[45] H ignores the information we provided in our article on the distinctly unheroic character of the DGU accounts provided.[46] What was most striking about the reported events was their banality. If H's speculations had merit, false portrayals of heroism should have involved frequent claims of facing down gun-wielding bad guys and exciting shootouts. In fact, RS reporting DGUs claimed to have faced adversaries with guns in only one-in-six cases,[47] claimed involvement in a shootout (both parties shooting) in just 3% of the cases,[48] and usually reported opponents with no weapons at all.[49] Likewise, they rarely boasted about their deadly shooting, with only 8% even claiming to have wounded an adversary.[50]
                    Don't worry.  You post your Hemenway snippets.  I'll post the direct responses.

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