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View Diary: The Kabuki Theater On The Fiscal Cliff Deal (344 comments)

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  •  The public option was dead. TBTF is still here (13+ / 0-)

    in 1983 Democrats agreed to raise the full retirement age to 67. Obama has many of those same types in on this deal. This is reality. These are historical facts.

    Peter Peterson is always gunning fro SS and has the ears of Congress like we don't have. the POTUS never disavowed chained CPI or raising the medicare age to 67 to get a deal. We know what he was willing to give up last time thanks for the written non deniable memo Bob Woodward released.

    Why should we believe you have been paying attention or care what you believe if you don't pay attention?

    I don't negotiate grand bargains with deficit terrorists!

    by priceman on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:30:31 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  So, Still No Evidence Of Obama Cutting Bennys? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howarddream, Larsstephens

      IOW, it's still all in your fevered imagination.

      Got it.

      This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

      by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:33:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We can read the memo Bob Woodward released (10+ / 0-)

        that only John Boehner rejected.

        If the POTUS would put the full faith and credit of the US up for bargain he would put anything.

        Bad framing on positions for SS is also harmful and this deal is just a continuation of the sellout deal form 2011, but you go ahead and delight in your ignorance and ignore the pattern and history I laid if it makes you feel better.

        It must be nice to be in a position to not have to worry about SS or medicare. Be lucky. Most seniors are not in that position, but you got yours, I see.

        I don't negotiate grand bargains with deficit terrorists!

        by priceman on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:38:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If we're doing our job effectively (12+ / 0-)

        He won't agree to it and it won't happen.  

        If he were truly opposed to these changes, he would say so publicly, unequivocally and specifically.  He hasn't yet, but we can always hope he will.

        All he has spoken about so far is opposition to "privatizing" these programs, nothing else.

        Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

        by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:51:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You Consider Whinging At Rumors A Job? (3+ / 0-)

          What's that pay?

          A quick google search will bring up pages of results of Obama speaking about supporting these programs.

          His ACTIONS have show he supports them because his ACTUAL programs and policies that have been, you know, IMPLEMENTED have, in reality ( you know what that is, right?) STRENGTHENED these programs.

          Despite the incessant whinging from usual suspects every step along the way that "OBAMA'S GUNNA CUT M/M AND SSS!!!!!! ", not a penny has been cut. Not a cent. Nothing. The programs have only been strengthened.

          But reality, facts and actual history of this administration apparently have no bearing on your opinion. As soon as some anonymous dipshit floats a rumor that perhaps, maybe the administration is consdiering blah blah blah, the usual suspects fly off the handls with the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how we've been sold down the river.

          Wake me when there's a proposal that actually cuts something and I'll be on board with everything I've got to stop it from being considered.

          Until then, you're crying wolf. Again.

          This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

          by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:59:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bravo sir! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Beetwasher, Larsstephens

            I cannot laud the way you've cleaned the clock of the unerpants gnomes brigade enough.

            You are dead right. Id like your comments a thousand times if I could (but due to site hypocrisy, I cant even like it once).

            These people do not care about what reality actually is. They are just looking for any scrap of rumor or innuendo so they can indulge in Democrat bashing, and damn the consequences.

            "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

            by Whimsical on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:03:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  In Washington DC (10+ / 0-)

            "Rumors" have  knack for becoming reality.

            As for ridiculing citizens who are active, educated on the issues and involved in public policy advocacy, well I'd say they're doing a better job than those who sit on the sidelines hurling snarls and insults.

            Informed citizen activism is a proud part of our democratic heritage. If you don't like it, perhaps you should consider moving.

            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:26:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well Then! Lets ignore facts and freak out over (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens

              Every dipshit rumor!  It does wonders for credibility!

              Fact:  Not a pennys been cut despite endless rumors for four years cuts were imminent.

              Keep crying wolf!  It works so well.

              This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

              by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:38:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Talking about the past is irrelevant (6+ / 0-)

                when it comes to public policy and sausage-making in DC.  We're also familiar with the old eleventy-dimensional chess game the WH plays.

                Let's look at it this way - if we were corporations hearing rumors of significant policy changes, we'd certainly have hundreds of lobbyists and PR firms on the job.  We obviously can't afford that, so we do the best with grassroots advocacy and we're just as entitled to do so.  You can bet there is a slew of lobbyists in DC now working against our best interests on these issues.

                But you can be sure, if those rumors turn into reality, it will be too late to change things.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

                Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:54:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Actually, No, It's Not, When In The Past (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Larsstephens

                  He could have easily cut these programs and instead protected and improved them.

                  But facts mean nothing to you when you've got fearmongering bullshit to push!

                  This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                  by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:59:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Dick Durbin advocates Means Testing (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dallasdoc, slinkerwink, elwior, JesseCW

                    Link

                    Anyone who followed the health care reform negotiations closely knows Dick Durbin is an unofficial spokesperson for the WH - he floats some trial balloons for them, but usually he's vocalizing the policy they're promoting behind closed doors.

                    Means testing for Medicare is a lazy way of trying to deal w/ increasing costs.  It does nothing to address the real problems, nor does it rein in high prescription and health care costs.   Any politician who is serious about cutting the cost of Medicare knows those are the most important areas to tackle first.

                    Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                    by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:16:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Then Focus Your Fire On Durbin (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Larsstephens

                      If he's on record supporting something you don't like. Sicne when is Obama=Durbin? Nancy Pelosi took cuts off the table. I don't see her attacking or smearing Obama. But you do.

                      This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                      by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:05:17 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Health Care Reform Negotiations (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nada Lemming, slinkerwink, Dallasdoc

                        Some of us followed those negotiations very closely, for several months, on a daily basis.  

                        Durbin played the role of spokesperson for the WH then, particularly on the Public Option and on other key provisions.  He was often caught countering his own publicly stated positions from one week to the next.   We learned the pattern pretty quickly.  

                        Durbin is the guy who publicly pushes their agenda in the Senate. The Obama WH prefers to do their work in the Senate, not the House.  They know Pelosi won't always go along with what they want, nor will she exert strong pressure to make the House Dem caucus follow along. The WH has tried using Hoyer to advance unpopular, conservative agenda items in the House, with limited success.

                        Obama was a senator, his contacts and friends are there.  He prefers doing his work though Senate Dems because conservative Dems like Durbin, Reid, Schumer, McCaskill, et al are more willing to pressure the Dem Caucus there.  

                        Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                        by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:18:28 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  LOL! WOW!! I'm Impressed!! You Followed The (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Larsstephens

                          HC Negotiations closely!!! You must know lot's of things. You're right. I now defer to you for all life's decisions. How could I ever have questioned your insight into Obama soul. I apologize profusely for ever doubting how wise you must be. I mean, YOU followed the negotiations closely from your computer. Wow. I'm so impressed. Where can I get your autograph and can I bother you to help me make up my mind about a host of other decisions and question about life, the universe and everything that I've been struggling with. I mean, you followed the negotiations closely. Color me impressed.

                          This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                          by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:22:41 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, I did (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nada Lemming, slinkerwink, Dallasdoc

                            and I'm smart enough to pay attention to DC Kabuki and protect my retirement income & health care.  Lots of others feel the same way.

                            So are your antics aimed at preventing people from contacting the WH to pressure them into protecting SS & Medicare?  What gives?

                            What's your motivation for attempting to insult fellow Kossacks?

                            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:28:55 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL! Umm, I Challenge Bullshit When I See It (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Larsstephens

                            That's my motivation.

                            You see, it's all well and nice that YOU followed the negotiations "closely" from your comfy seat at the computer and took potshots at your best ally from the peanut gallery.

                            It might surprise you to know that other people on this site were much closer to the action. Some people may even be affiliated with management at large non-profit healthcare centers that actually rely on programs like M/M. They may actually WORK for a living and BE experts at implementing such programs.

                            Some of these people may actually have had to read THE ENTIRE ACA as part of their job because they actually have to implement it operationally, so they really actually know, pragmatically, what it does. In, you know, reality. Because they actually UTILIZE it and IMPLEMENT. For real.

                            Just saying there may be some people like that.

                            But YOU. You followed the negotiations closely online, so you must know what you're talking about.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:34:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I also lobbied on the Hill (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            slinkerwink, Dallasdoc, PhilJD

                            and managed the efforts of a 400+ group of grassroots activists.  So there's that.

                            I'm not a paid lobbyist, so couldn't afford more than a couple of visits (at my own expense) to the Hill.  The rest of the time is spent where I can afford it - handling advocacy on line, by email, social media and through conference calls, town hall meetings and webinars with other health care reform advocacy groups.   Yeah, we even read different versions of the bills and went over amendments with a fine tooth comb. All volunteer.

                            So yeah, you may want to be careful where you toss your unclever insults.  As I mentioned before, the level of experience and expertise of fellow Kossacks is probably much greater than you realize.  But don't take my word for it, ask my senator and our local members of Congress.

                            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:18:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL! Uh Huh, Sure You Did (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Larsstephens

                            "I'm not a paid lobbyist".

                            LOL! Yeah, me neither. ROFL! I took a trip to DC when i was 14 with my JHS class and my met my rep. So there! Wrote letters too! Nyah nyah!

                            ROFL!

                            Oh! I defer to your authority you unpaid lobbyist you!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:23:40 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's called grassroots advocacy (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            slinkerwink, Dallasdoc

                            Lots of people participate for various causes, through 501 c 3 organizations, and they do it on a voluntary basis.  You have to do it on a volunteer basis, that's the way federal law and the IRS require it be done.

                            Why are you acting like such an arsehole?

                            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:55:40 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Such A Font Of Wisdom! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Larsstephens

                            Oh teach me oh wise one! What other pearls of wisdom will you deign to bequeath to one so lowly as I!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 08:15:34 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You used to be a nice person (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            slinkerwink, Dallasdoc

                            I don't know what the heck happened to you. I used to enjoy reading your posts. It's a shame you changed and became so unfriendly and hostile.  

                            Maybe you need to take some time off from this place. Take a break.

                            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

                            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 08:21:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I Was? When Was That? (0+ / 0-)

                            Nahh, I'm just an asshole, don't take it personally.;)

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 10:50:08 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  "Talking about the past is irrelevant" (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Beetwasher

                          At least you are consistent
                          with all of your inconsistencies.

          •  And when it comes to my retirement (6+ / 0-)

            and health care access, I'm willing to defend it against anyone who wants to steal it away.

            Some of you may be wealthy and not in a position to worry about retirement income and health care, but most Americans are affected by the proposed changes of the Cat Food Commission.

            You should know by now that Kossacks are an educated bunch who know these kinds of issues inside & out.  If you want to attack fellow Kossacks on this issue, be prepared to lose.

            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:29:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, Fearmongering Bullshit Really Helps Your (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens

              Case, since, Obama hasn't cut a penny in penny's, despite your whinging that it was imminent.

              This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

              by Beetwasher on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:00:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, the affected Britishism "Whinging." (9+ / 0-)

            How very unsurprising from someone so clearly pining for the days of monarchy, longing for some good ole American lese majeste laws.

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:42:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Beetwasher" = "Gets the Red out", right? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dallasdoc, PhilJD

            This isn't a site dedicated to a more right wing Democratic Party.

            You should stop play-acting at arguing over tactics.

            You're here to fight over goals.

            This place needs a PVP server.

            by JesseCW on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:28:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Let's See, Obama Expanded M/M (0+ / 0-)

              But now he's actually planning to cut it? Oh, that makes sense.

              This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

              by Beetwasher on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:02:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  the media is complicit with their eternal: "Dems (7+ / 0-)

          HAVE to give something back if the Republicans are willing to accept a tax hike," daily chant--to which I shout back "bullshit~!"

          We don't HAVE to "give back" ANYTHING.  It's all we've been doing for the past 12 years.

          If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

          by livjack on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:01:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agree, the talking points are out there (6+ / 0-)

            pushing for a "solution" that involves cuts to these programs.

            For the life of me, I don't see how these Wall Street arseholes benefit, except for thinking it will help them avoid increases in capital gains tax cuts or something similar.

            Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

            by Betty Pinson on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:59:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  well, there's the fact that Obama (12+ / 0-)

      volunteered in front of 40 million people that his views of Social Security were the same as Romney's.

      That was in the first debate, for those playing along at home.

      There are some things that are unforgivable. Your willingness to play political games while people suffer and die is one of them--Onomastic

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:42:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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