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View Diary: Wouldn't 136 Bullets Have Been Enough? (157 comments)

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  •  I don't see anything here (2+ / 0-)
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    Derfel, jpmassar

    About what triggered the shooting.  Towards the end of the 100mph chase, the suspect rammed a police car as he headed off an exit road.  Police converged on the suspect on a dead end street.  Several officers had already gotten out of their cars when the suspect driver rammed yet another police car, nearly striking an officer.  As reported in the Plain Dealer, "police are trained to use deadly force to stop a suspect from using a vehicle as a weapon. They opened fire."

    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.

    by winsock on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:58:09 PM PST

    •  By the end of the chase, fear and panic (2+ / 0-)
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      winsock, jpmassar

      were understandable. But why did they flee in the first place?

      Obviously, running from the police doesn't merit being killed, but it does merit being chased by the police. And when things fell apart at the end, with the ramming of police cars, the result was tragic.

      Perhaps it's a question of technique. There is technology that can blow out tires and so on, reducing the risk of injury. Wasn't it possible to employ that technology here?

      In any case, it's a tragedy, and one in which I believe Timothy Russell deserves the lion's share of the blame. Why didn't he just pull the F over?

      What should the police do in a case like this, when after a lengthy chase, the driver, refusing to stop, apparently tries to kill police officers with his car? There's got to be a better way than just killing him (and his innocent passenger), but what is it?

      •  I think the key is to eliminate the (1+ / 0-)
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        "after a lengthy chase" part, if there's any possibility of others being put in danger.

        Some investigative work could probably track the driver down at a later time, especially if they have the license plate.  Much more sensible than continuing to chase someone a 100 mph IMHO.

    •  Then you didn't read the diary. (1+ / 0-)
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      tiggers thotful spot

      Because this was explicitly mentioned in it, along with a discussion about the passenger possibly being an unwilling participant in these manuevers.

      •  Jpmassar (1+ / 0-)
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        I mean I didn't see anything in all of the comments here -- no discussion of Russell using his vehicle as a weapon, which is a key element (perhaps THE key element) in why police opened fire.  It was noted in your diary, yes -- sorry I wasn't more clear.  The passenger, Williams, could be almost thought of as a hostage in this situation.

        Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.

        by winsock on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:37:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right. (1+ / 0-)
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          I don't think anyone questions that if someone is driving a car at you and obviously imperiling your safety you should do something to prevent that.

          The questions are whether it had to come to that, was it sane to endanger/kill the passenger, and what caused the police to go crazy, firing 137 rounds, instead of maintaining discipline.  For all the police knew there could have been kids in the back seat.

        •  I'm somewhat confused on those details. (2+ / 0-)
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          winsock, jpmassar

          So the suspect's vehicle rammed a police car as he was headed off an exit road.  And then rammed a police vehicle at the end of the chase.

          Just 2 things puzzle me.  First, there is no evident damage to the front of the vehicle except for bullet holes.  So if the vehicle hit a police vehicle on an exit road you would think that some visible front end damage would be present - especially from "ramming".  Now it is theoretically possible that at the end of the chase the suspect rammed using the rear of the vehicle (I haven't seen any photos including the rear of the car). That leads to my second puzzle.  Had the suspect used the rear of the vehicle to ram the police car then why are all the bullet holes in the front of the vehicle.  From the few photos I saw of the crime scene they all have the suspect's vehicle facing the police.

          And just to add another question to the possibility of using the rear of the car as a ram.  They had pulled into a parking lot not a dead end street.  This can clearly be scene in the photos.  So it is less likely that someone being chased would change directions and begin backing out when they could keep momentum and unobstructed vision   by making a circle - which looks highly possible and probable given the final directional attitude of the car.

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:34:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What is also puzzling (2+ / 0-)
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            newfie, jpmassar

            according to the Plain Dealer reports, is that when a police shooting incident is involved, the attending officers are given 72 hours before their statements are taken.  This is supposedly to give the officers time to reflect and cool down.  But does this not also give the officers time to collaborate their stories?

            Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.

            by winsock on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:52:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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