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View Diary: Colorado Concealed Carry Class (109 comments)

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  •  Sometimes you don't get the choice to flee. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Robobagpiper

    I hope you've got better suggestions for people in those situations than UMW does.

    •  My advice was pretty clear: get trained. (5+ / 0-)

      Get lots of it.  Wherever you can.  

      The concealed carry course is not enough.  It teaches you the law, teaches you basic firearm safety, makes sure you can hit the side of a barn, and gives some basic advice.  It does not prepare you for handgun combat.  It does not prepare you to pull the trigger.  It does not prepare you to prevent having your weapon wrested away.  It does not teach you how to most effectively use the tool you have and not get out-gunned by someone else.  

      So, you make your own decision and I'll make mine.  In the end, we still agree on one thing:  you have the right to carry.  But if you're going to, you should never stop learning and training.  As I mentioned, most the people in my advanced pistol course were cops.  They work the job every day, and they STILL take the course every year when it's offered, and most pay the $500 out of their own pockets (plus travel, hotel, ammo and other expenses).  That ought to tell you something.  

      •  You're not going to war. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher

        With very few exceptions, you'll never even draw your weapon in anger.  If and when you do, it will almost always be facing one threat no more than five yards away.

        You should do what you feel is comfortable.  If you want to continue learning, I encourage it.  But I hope you do so for reasons other than obligation; otherwise, you're just going through the motions like a conscript.

        •  This is my last comment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, tytalus

          But I want people to notice this.

          With very few exceptions, you'll never even draw your weapon in anger.
          Perhaps its just a slip, but please note that Pete ain't talking about fear, for safety or whatever...he's talking anger.  I don't think I am out of line in saying THERE IS NEVER A SITUATION IN WHICH ANYONE SHOULD DRAW A GUN IN ANGER.

          I'm sorry folks, there are plenty of gun folks who are responsible, Pete ain't one of em.

          "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

          by Empty Vessel on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 11:55:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No more than five yards, huh? (7+ / 0-)

          The first thing you'd learn at a pistol tactics course:  If they're five yards or less from you, and they've got the drop on you, you're very likely to lose the confrontation whether you're armed or not.  You have an extremely short time to react.  And the likelihood of losing increases the closer they get.  From beginning to end, you have about three seconds to withdraw your weapon, aim, and fire a stop-shot.    

          That's why we take pistol tactics courses.  To teach us how to protect our weapon close-in, withdraw it, use it while some guy is beating your face in, twisting your arm, breaking your fingers, and trying to take your gun away.  To practice shooting while moving side-to-side or retreating to seek cover.  To practice shooting at a moving target (try shooting at a moving target while you yourself are moving, that's fun).  To learn how to effectively hit a critical area like the center mass or head (which can seem incredibly small in a dynamic situation) of a moving target.  

          If you don't practice these things on a regular basis, you should.  Because as someone (you, maybe?) recently pointed out, more than 90% of the time, your bad guy will be less than 5 yards away and will be able to close the distance before most people can withdraw their weapon, aim, and place a good shot.  If your hand is not at low-ready in half a second of you processing a threat, you're dead.  It should all happen automatically.  If you have to think about it, you're dead.  But if you don't think about it and control your automatic response, you just pulled a gun on someone you shouldn't have.  That's the line you walk, and it takes practice.  

          •  Not sure who taught you that... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher

            ...but it's definitely suspect.  

            Deadly Force Statistical Analysis:

            Also notable, the actual distances of initial shots fired during 2011 by all 27 officers ranged from a high of 165 feet to a low of one foot, and averaged 27.1 feet.  The average amount of separation drops to a
            more representative 21.8 feet when  the single most anomalous firing distance, in this case 165 feet, is excluded from computation.
            So between 7-9 yards (not 5, my mistake).

            To be generous, fieldcraft--which are more art than science--differs depending on the background of whoever offers the course.  And setting aside LEOs who can operate freely and the rare instance of an offender who can swiftly and decisively drop you in cold blood, there's rarely such thing as getting the drop on someone.

            •  Pg. 16 shows that the number (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tytalus, cany

              ...of shootings within ten feet EQUALS the number of shootings within 11-25 and 26-50 COMBINED, making the 1-10 feet category the largest single grouping they measured!  They go on to explain how the use of SWAT tactics has increased the average shooting distance: i.e.: SWAT tends to shoot people further out than the street cop.

              Furthermore, they caution you to not read too much into the AVERAGE distance, due to some extreme outliers.

              So the question really is, what is the MEDIAN?  If I have five numbers, 1,2,3,9 and 10, the average is 5, but the median is 3.  Or if I have 1,2,3,19,20 the average is now nine, but the median is still three....

              At this point, I think you're running circles around yourself.  At first, you didn't need training because you were dealing with people up close and personal.  Now, you don't need it because you're dealing with them further out (based on one report from one police department who specifically cautions you about drawing the conclusion you are drawing).  

              And what do you mean you can't get a drop on someone?  If we're facing off in an alleyway, and my hand gets to my weapon before yours does, all other things being equal, you're dead and I'm not.  

              Seriously, I appreciate your passion, but I'm starting to get bored.            

               

              •  You already answered your own question. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PavePusher

                The median lies within 1 to 10 feet, or under 3 yards.  This is not terribly important.  What does matter is that the range of engagement is typically around 5 yards.

                The marksman issue is an interesting diversion, but not relevant here.  Put simply, SWAT didn't contribute significantly to the OIS count.

                Now let's address some of your errors:

                At first, you didn't need training because you were dealing with people up close and personal.
                I said no such thing.
                Now, you don't need it because you're dealing with them further out.
                I definitely said no such thing.
                (based on one report from one police department...
                It's possible there's regional variation in shooting distances. If you have better data, share it.
                ...who specifically cautions you about drawing the conclusion you are drawing).  
                Says no such thing.

                The disagreement we have is simple.  You're drawing conclusions are rooted in hypotheticals.  I'm concerned with what my customers will likely face out there should worse come to worse.  There's nothing wrong with additional preparation, but the advantages are marginal.

          •  I've practiced plenty for over forty years. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher

            Mostly in uniform in my home country.  The stuff you're talking about is mostly mental, and mostly like learning to ride a bike.  Everything after that is keeping the blade sharp.

      •  But to the point. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher

        It is unnecessarily unjust to require your level of interest and dedication in working with firearms in order to entrust a citizen with the means to defend themselves.  Sometimes, the lady just wants a bit of security in her purse.  I'm not going to insist she fork over $300 + hours upon hours of range time so she can have it.  A clean record, a simple acknowledgement of responsibility and a measure of judgment you'd expect out of even a decent child is all I require.

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