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View Diary: MAJOR 2nd Amendment victory in the most RKBA-hostile state in America (608 comments)

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  •  More gun deaths in Chicago than Afghanistan (17+ / 0-)

    since 2001.

    Link

    InB4 'zomg now you're adding law-abiding folks able to defend themselves more guns into the equation???'

    •  I saw this on twitter almost (12+ / 0-)

      an hour ago, and my heart sank. I live outside of Chicago and have family in Chicago,  and I do not consider this a victory at all.

      Don't look at me in that tone of voice. Dorothy Parker

      by kirbybruno on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:02:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just curious as to why. (11+ / 0-)

        The rest of the country allows for civilian concealed carry.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:03:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I guess just seeing (4+ / 0-)

          the shootings on the news every, single night just makes it seem so dangerous. I know that there is an urban vs. rural angle to it, but there is no way that when it was written into the constitution anyone could possibly have predicted what has happened in some of our cities.

          Don't look at me in that tone of voice. Dorothy Parker

          by kirbybruno on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:08:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ok, but those shootings are happening (14+ / 0-)

            when there are laws against civilian carry. Do you think it's going to get a lot worse?

            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

            by KVoimakas on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:11:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  More civilian deaths, yes. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ichibon, oldpunk
              Do you think it's going to get a lot worse?
              •  It hasn't anywhere else... (11+ / 0-)

                ...where shall-issue concealed-carry has become the law.

                Why do you think it will be different in this case?

                Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:19:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  What do you base that on? nt (10+ / 0-)

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:20:53 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Prove it. (7+ / 0-)

                Back it up.

                "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

                by kestrel9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:03:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Time will do that. (0+ / 0-)

                  "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                  by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:36:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It hasn't done so yet. (14+ / 0-)

                    Every time another state passes shall-issue concealed-carry, there are claims that "blood will run in the streets."

                    The thing is, though, that it doesn't happen.

                    To the best of my knowledge, violent crime has not risen anywhere in conjunction with legalized concealed-carry.  If it has done so, I'm sure you will be able to support the evidence in support of your argument.

                    In fact, over the same time period that such laws have been enacted, violent crime has gone down.

                    And, as I stated in another comment, I am not claiming that these laws lead to lower crime, but they certainly have not been shown to increase crime.

                    All of that in mind, why will this time be any different?

                    In other words, every time another state goes shall-issue concealed carry, people state a similar sentiment to yours, here.

                    They have not been correct yet.  

                    Why will this time be different?

                    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                    by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:41:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's an admission by glorificus (5+ / 0-)

                      that only emotion backs up all but their most general assertions. I'd say a victory imo.

                      •  Anyone can have an opinion. It's a feature. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Phil S 33

                        Doesn't mean you are correct, but if you want to think so, have a party!!!!!!!!

                        "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                        by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:01:09 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually my comment was incomplete. What I (0+ / 0-)

                      meant is time will show which side is correct, so asking for proof now is unneeded.

                      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                      by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:00:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Fair enough. (8+ / 0-)

                        Of course, as I pointed out, the preponderance of the evidence to this point is all coming down on the side of those supporting legalized, shall-issue concealed-carry laws.

                        In fact, I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever that supports the claims that it will lead to an increase in violent crime, the so-called "blood in the streets" that so very many people have prophecized.

                        That's why I'm willing, absent some new evidence, to dismiss the claims.  In fact, isn't that the only reasonable thing to do?  Dismiss claims that have no evidence to support them?

                        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                        by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:05:11 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't consider guns a reasonable issue any (0+ / 0-)

                          more than abortion or homophobia.

                          Time will tell.

                          "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                          by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:13:10 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't understand what you're trying to say here. (5+ / 0-)

                            Could you elaborate?

                            I'm just not following what you're getting at...

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:37:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because I don't agree with GUNS FOR ALL (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kirbybruno

                            ALL THE TIME I'm not saying you are wrong or right now.

                            I don't want you to be wrong, because that means too many more people will die; I don't want you to be right, either, because I don't think a huge number of Illini would be as responsible as some RKBAers say THEY are.

                            People with guns can intimidate others - who won't complain or be noticed because they fear for themselves, their kids, their pets, their friends, etc., etc. So you all can LOUDLY proclaim the reduced numbers of deaths or shootings without ever noticing or caring about the terror additional people will live under. And yes, men do that now, I do NOT want to hear any bullshit about intimidation not being exclusive to guns.

                            It's a weaselly response on my part, and I'm sticking with it.

                            I'm firmly in support of NO laws about abortion access (like the laws for gallbladder removal now) and I think homophobia is just dumb.

                            But we all know my opinion on the last 2 issues is not shared universally.

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:54:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, here's the major problem with that. (9+ / 0-)

                            No one advocates for guns for all, all the time.

                            Not even the dreaded NRA advocates that there should be no limitations on gun ownership.  So, that being the case, to some extent, you are arguing against a stance not taken.

                            When you do that, people are going to dismiss your arguments -- and reasonably so.  Why would anyone consider a counter-argument to an argument not made?

                            Additionally, you somewhat misunderstand the argument about intimidation.  Sure, people with guns can intimidate other people.  People without guns can intimidate other people, also.

                            Do you want to do away with everything that could possibly intimidate someone else?  I'm assuming not -- it would be nonsensical.

                            That being the case, the argument is that, just because some people are intimidated by firearms, is that, in and of itself, enough reason to ban or severely restrict them?

                            I believe that it is not.  No more than we should ban red cars because some people find them intimidating.

                            This is another misunderstanding:

                            So you all can LOUDLY proclaim the reduced numbers of deaths or shootings without ever noticing or caring about the terror additional people will live under.
                            What is, in fact, being pointed out is that this terror you refer to is not felt by everyone, and since it can be shown that more legally-owned firearms do not contribute to more deaths or shooting, then this terror is not a reasonable one.

                            Should we regulate anything based on unreasonable fears?  I think not.  Clearly, you think otherwise.

                            But, let's say we go down that path.  Where do we stop?

                            Some people are terrified of homosexuals.  By your own logic, then, homophobia is a good thing!  People should be able to ban same-sex marriage because it is a threat to "normal" marriage, in their view.  Is that a good enough argument to restrict that right?

                            If not, then why is it a good enough argument to restrict this right?

                            The latter is a rhetorical question -- I am not, at this point, trying to convince you of anything.  I am only trying to explain the point of view from the other side of the argument, which you apparently misunderstand, at several levels.

                            Additionally, I probably won't be able to respond any more until morning.  Dinner time.

                            Have a good evening.

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:09:13 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  whatever. (0+ / 0-)

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:15:33 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What a stunning rebuttal! (5+ / 0-)

                            With such wordplay, who needs facts or logic on their side?

                            I mean, it was positively multi-syllabic!  

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 02:53:32 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No. (0+ / 0-)
                            I am only trying to explain the point of view from the other side of the argument, which you apparently misunderstand, at several levels.
                            No, I understand.

                            I don't agree.

                            Homophobia is an opinion or attitude. By itself it hurts no one, just as Rick Perry's fulminations against Planned Parenthood would not hurt women except he has allies in the legislature to pass laws restricting women's ability to get affordable health care.

                            On abortion, pergnancy is intrinsic to a woman's body. As a hypothetical, because I neither know nor care about your personal life, if a man with fertile sperm has unprotected sex with a woman at a fertile time in her cycle, conception can occur.

                            The results of this conception can kill her. Complications from gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, infection, vertigo at the wrong time, hemorrhage or stroke during birth, suicide from post-partum depression.

                            These result from her body.

                            A gun is an extrinsic threat. People are not born with them the way they are born with uteri or testes or the ability to form attitudes. Guns need to be obtained sometime after birth.

                            I do see a gun can be just a tool. However, too many whackos get their hands on them, and RKBA doesn't care.

                            kestrel9000 wrote this celebration of extended gun rights. When the kids are killed RKBA is NEVER out front deploring the death or injury. They pull out statistics and wave the Constitution. A nice, safe, sterile strategy the completely avoids the blood and tears and heartbreak.

                            It's always just that individual who was stupid or careless.

                            I'm sick of you all "ignoring reality".

                            And the dead and injured prove

                            That never works out well.

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 05:49:50 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So, relying on emotion rather than fact. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Wordsinthewind, rockhound, KVoimakas

                            This is why we'll never agree -- you ignore the facts that you don't like and ascribe stances to people that they don't take.

                            In fact, your post here contains several simply untrue assertions:

                            A gun is an extrinsic threat.
                            ...and RKBA doesn't care.
                            When the kids are killed RKBA is NEVER out front deploring the death or injury.
                            I'm sick of you all "ignoring reality".
                            Some of these are simply factually untrue, some are you attributing attitudes and beliefs to others based on nothing but your own imagination.

                            If you refuse to acknowledge objective fact and continue to insist upon ascribing motives and beliefs to others that they do not hold, then there is no point in engaging you in discussion whatsoever.  

                            Emotion is not an acceptable yardstick to base law on -- that's how we end up with restrictions on abortion.

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:02:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                            A gun is an extrinsic threat.
                            What are you suggesting? Having a revolver surgically attached to your hand? Humans are not normally born with guns as part of their anatomy.
                            When the kids are killed RKBA is NEVER out front deploring the death or injury.
                            Post a link disproving this, please, that doesn't include kestrel9000 piggybacking on my comment.

                            And if you think RKBA issues don't include emotions on your side, you are correct, we won't agree - which I realized early on and so left the one word comment you were so dismissive of.

                            If one is so enamoured of the beauty and importance of the concept of "rights" without looking into what the ramifications of those rights can mean in meatspace, I have no respect or time for them.

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:40:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, I am stating... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Wordsinthewind, rockhound, KVoimakas

                            ...that a firearm is not, in and of itself, a threat at all.

                            Guns don't leap out of a holster and shoot people without someone actively using them to do so -- nor are they possessed of malevolent spirits that cause people to magically become murderous.

                            They are inert pieces of steel, wood, and/or polymer.

                            Your demands for me to provide disproof of your unsupported claims are ludicrous.  You made the original claim, the onus is on you to support it -- not upon others to disprove it.

                            And, once again, you attribute stances to others that they simply do not take:

                            If one is so enamoured of the beauty and importance of the concept of "rights" without looking into what the ramifications of those rights can mean in meatspace, I have no respect or time for them.
                            This is simply a dishonest tactic.  In my opinion, when one has to resort so often to such tactics to support their own stance, perhaps it is time to take a closer look at that stance.

                            Perhaps one could do so with logic and reason, instead of allowing emotions to cloud reality.

                            If you choose not to do so, that is not my failing, but your own.

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:46:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Blah, blah, blah. Did you miss the word "IF" (0+ / 0-)

                            beginning the blockquote? Only you know if that sentence pertains to your mindset.

                            Your first sentence or 2 actually confirms my point. A gun does not act by itself. Therefore it can be controlled. However, TomP has a diary up that illustrates how often that doesn't happen.

                            I'm done. You have the potential to not be an jerk, time will tell.

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:55:24 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ah, yes. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Wordsinthewind

                            "Blah, blah, blah."

                            The usual response of someone with no real response -- and with a sad little attempt at personal insult.

                            Yeah, quite impressive on your part.

                            Really, if that's all you've got, maybe you should reconsider your stance.  I am able to support mine with evidence and logic -- all you seem to have is insults, falsehoods, and non-responses.

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 03:21:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In other words, you are ignoring reality. (6+ / 0-)

                            That never works out well.

                          •  "Time will tell", once time has already told, is (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon, Wordsinthewind

                            the retreat of the ideologue. Climate denialists have said the same thing when their claims are beaten down by the data.

                            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 04:59:56 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Well (6+ / 0-)

                        a lot of that sure goes on in these threads on both sides. I just think ours is better at supplying it.

                        "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

                        by kestrel9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:12:06 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Any day now.... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theatre goon, kestrel9000

                    amIright?

            •  I realize that, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ichibon, glorificus

              and yes I do think it can and will get worse because of this.  I really don't know what the answer is, but I really hope soon it gets better. I cannot imagine this making it better, that is for sure.

              Don't look at me in that tone of voice. Dorothy Parker

              by kirbybruno on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:21:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why? (10+ / 0-)

                There is evidence out there to suggest that someone carrying an illegal firearm is more likely to use it in haste than someone carrying a registered firearm.

                People who commit crimes with guns usually aren't using registered ones (or following the law to begin with).  They engage in various criminal acts (that will certainly remain criminal) like removing serial numbers.  Criminals will have guns because guns exist, criminals want them, and someone will always be willing to sell A to B for Cashmoney.

                People have a basic right to defend themselves.  You can restrict how they do so (automatic weapons bans, gun registrations, carry permits, background checks, restrictions on the number of guns owned) as well you should, but you can't regulate away the right itself without turning normal citizens into criminals.  Just because you choose not to exercise that right does not mean that you get to deprive someone else of that right.  

                The law, as it is now, turns normal law-abiding people who want to be able to defend themselves into criminals.  It forces them to live in fear: that they will be arrested for being armed, or that they will be victimized because they were not.  That is not right and not just.  

                The state could not show reasonable evidence that their existing law was based anything more than 'guns are bad because bullets come out of them.'  Laws not based on provable fact need to be challenged, whether you agree with them or not.

                •  Our arguments won't really work on each (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hedwig

                  other because I don't think anyone should have guns. I personally think that the value of life has sunk so low that they should not be an option for defense.  I am not saying that it was always that way, but that is the way it is now, IMO. Anything I say to you will seem extreme. Which is why I normally don't come in these diaries, but I guess I couldn't resist the local news.

                  Don't look at me in that tone of voice. Dorothy Parker

                  by kirbybruno on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 05:06:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Are you okay with the police and the military (5+ / 0-)

                    having guns?

                    By the Collision of different Sentiments, Sparks of Truth are struck out, and political Light is obtained. - Benjamin Franklin

                    by oldpunk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 07:51:30 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not sure I understand what you mean here... (5+ / 0-)

                    Because I'm reading it as saying that human life is of so little value that, in any case in which the available options are a violent death ordefending one's life with a firearm, (and, yes, with a significant chance that one's attacker will die) the victim's death is the better outcome.

                    That point of view is so morally offensive to me that I don't want to attribute it to anyone, especially not erroneouly.

                    Is this really what you're saying?

                    --Shannon

                    "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                    "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                    by Leftie Gunner on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:44:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  There is no evidence (9+ / 0-)

                to support such a belief. Criminals do not get permits or register their firearms. Permit holders have lower crime rates that law enforcement officers.

                "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                by happy camper on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:02:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Do you think it will make things worse? (4+ / 0-)

        If so, how?  And please provide examples of states where crime rates (murder especially) went up after re-adopting carry laws.

    •  So... (11+ / 0-)

      obviously the law isn't keeping criminals from owning or carrying guns...or did you have another point.

      For the record I am a vegan, ultra-liberal, gun owner who believes in reasonable regulation and mandatory safety training for purchase, but not outright bans as they accomplish very little that is positive.

      Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago? Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? Hwær cwom symbla gesetu? Hwær sindon seledreamas?
      Eala beorht bune! Eala byrnwiga! Eala þeodnes þrym!

      by Alea iacta est on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:06:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How trained are you? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher
        •  Fairly well trained by most civilian standards. (8+ / 0-)

          I was taught to use a firearm by my father who was the armorer for his platoon in the US Army, and have since taken a rigorous handgun safety/concealed carry courses in NM that were taught by an SFC who is a small arms instructor for the Us Army (a friend of my friend mentioned below).

          I shoot regularly (and have for years) with one of my closest friends who was an E-6 in the 82nd (also has his Ranger tab) and currently is an asymmetrical warfare instructor for the Army National Guard; over the years he has taught me a lot about shooting in both the use and the safety departments.

          I was not (of course) required to do any training for the purchases I have made, and I think it is a problem. I really think that the biggest problem amongst legal gun owners is that they all thinks they know how to use a gun safely, but there is no regulation. I would support mandatory safety classes (and periodic refreshers) wholeheartedly.

          Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago? Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? Hwær cwom symbla gesetu? Hwær sindon seledreamas?
          Eala beorht bune! Eala byrnwiga! Eala þeodnes þrym!

          by Alea iacta est on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:56:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Most of the guns come from proxy buys (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli, kestrel9000, IreGyre

      They are purchased through proxy at places and locations where its very easy to purchase many weapons or the tracking of said purchase is poor.

      They are then trafficked and sold on the black market.

      I grew up on the south side, its so easy to get a gun as to be silly.

      --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

      by idbecrazyif on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:15:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Explain the violence under current law then (16+ / 0-)

      No one is legally allowed to carry today. So where does that gun violence come from?  Why don't they obey the laws we have today?

      Lesson one:  criminals don't obey the law and carry anyway.

      Lesson two:  criminals don't want to get shot and are perfectly content to attack and kill the disarmed. When thugs are getting shot in self defense, the rest will find other ways of making a living.

      Lesson three:  Most Chicago gun deaths are gang / drug trade related. Legalize drugs, end the black market, and gun deaths will fall.

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