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View Diary: MAJOR 2nd Amendment victory in the most RKBA-hostile state in America (608 comments)

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  •  again (6+ / 0-)

    we have a difference of opinion on the meaning of "human rights." it's so out of the mainstream that it's not even polled, but i'm guessing gun ownership is considered a human right by only a very small percentage of the world's humans.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 01:48:16 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  The right to defend your own life (10+ / 0-)

      is a human right. This necessitates the means.

      "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

      by kestrel9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:34:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  given gun laws throughout the developed world (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Scioto, luckydog

        it would seem that most people consider gun laws part of defending lives. your interpretation of that right is very much the minority in the developed world.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:10:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see the difference in gun laws (restrictive) (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          johnel, PavePusher

          versus Bill of Rights (permissive) is a) partially a government creating itself from the top down, not including firearms pretends they won't/don't exist and b) The 2A causes shit-tons of problems for kabuki republics fearful of actually turning the reins of power over to the citizens.
          But I get all gushy when we start wallowing in the creation of this country. Some people think it's been around a really long time; its permanence is guaranteed; others recognize there are nations flailing around in Europe with socks older than the U.S. and it's creation took an amazing amount of intelligence, insight and timing. It really is a fragile experiment borne of constant inspection, intelligent, informed insight; not just three guys in a Wal mart parking lot one night with a twelve pack of Old Milwaukee.

          Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

          by Thousandwatts on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:53:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  gun laws work (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            luckydog

            throughout the developed world. many of which nations designed their constitutions on our model, but without anything about guns. curious, that.

            i don't get gushy about the creation of this country. i get realistic. many of the founders were really lousy people. i also wish franklin would have prevailed against adams, in the design of our government. and we are lucky that jefferson prevailed against adams in 1800. but then jefferson was a racist slaveowner.

            we will catch up with the rest of the developed world, just as we will on health care. it's just a question of how many needless deaths there will be in the meantime. meanwhile, there's another crazed shooter with at least one semi-automatic weapon, in an ongoing situation at a shopping mall, less than a half hour drive from me. right now.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 05:10:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, they modeled it on our model sans the (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher

              Second Amendment because they want to ignore it like it will go away, or just completely outlaw them and not have to deal with that freedom.
              They are afraid to deal with the notion of a citizenry entitled by the constitution to own firearms.

              Gushiness isn't trumped or negated by your "realism".
              It's just a word I use.
              Nice try, though.
              I am amazed and impressed by the Founders and the process and the product. It is unique and I am not afraid to say I get "gushy"- doesn't mean I am not "realistic".

              Jefferson was a slaveowner and he was aware of the inconsistency therein; all men make choices and with hindsight, perhaps they could have found better solutions.
              Removing the people from the times and circumstances isn't fair or truthful.
              Everyone has some burden they are bearing.

              Healthcare reform and the Second Amendment are a false equivalency.

              I am sorry to hear about the mall shooting, my father lived in Hillsboro and Beaverton.
               

              Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

              by Thousandwatts on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 05:30:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  jefferson was an unapologetic racist (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                luckydog

                plenty of people from his era were not. there are no valid excuses.

                and those developed nations seem to be on to something, given their very low rates of gun violence.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 05:36:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's three ignorant, unsupported opinions (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher, Robobagpiper

                  presented as facts, but thanks for playing.

                  Your assertion is lame and opinion.
                  Followed with a general false equivalence presented as another "fact".

                  Jefferson was a Southern slave owner caught in the Enlightenment and his own writings; the contradiction was real and acknowledged
                  His writings were used by both sides, and he wrote them both.
                  Perhaps he could have done more or lived more ascetically in an effort to better reconcile the dissonance..
                  A lot of people could have done more than he did and the books are filled with those who didn't.

                  Every one bears a weight.

                  Your sig and your assertions are polar opposites.

                  Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

                  by Thousandwatts on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 09:33:17 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  if you're going to write about the founders (0+ / 0-)

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 10:33:37 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Great advice you give-Why don't you take it? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Robobagpiper

                      You cite the same source in two different blogs
                      The guy writes coffeetable books about race relations amongst George Washington, now Jefferson and he just did a big book on the Moodys of Texas.

                      Try a source doc for clarity and voice:http://classicliberal.tripod.com/...

                      Then over time debate with Madison slavery http://www.gwu.edu/...
                      possible thought on slavery amendments

                      Futher letters to Madison clarify :http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/...

                      Locke in Jefferson's brain as seen by Tocqueville
                      http://www.democracyweb.org/...

                      Your
                      Your empty bark belongs on the porch.

                      Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

                      by Thousandwatts on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 12:04:19 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  he had his own reasons, on slavery (0+ / 0-)

                        but just try to parse those quotes that depict blacks as less than human, certainly less than white humans.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 12:07:47 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  and btw (0+ / 0-)

                        two of those don't even mention slavery, a third doesn't touch his own feelings about slavery, and the one that defends him conveniently omits the facts and quotes i cited.  but do keep trying.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 12:13:00 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You quoted the same modern article, twice. (0+ / 0-)

                          I quoted what Jefferson wrote. Or Adams to Jefferson. or Tocqueville with regard to Jefferson's views.

                          Naw, that's okay; the cat's been in your sand box again.

                          Cheers

                          Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

                          by Thousandwatts on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 06:18:13 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  how embarrassing and revealing of you (0+ / 0-)

                            parse this:

                            I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind. It is not against experience to suppose, that different species of the same genus, or varieties of the same species, may possess different qualifications. Will not a lover of natural history then, one who views the gradations in all the races of animals with the eye of philosophy, excuse an effort to keep those in the department of man as distinct as nature has formed them? This unfortunate difference of colour, and perhaps of faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people. Many of their advocates, while they wish to vindicate the liberty of human nature, are anxious also to preserve its dignity and beauty. Some of these, embarrassed by the question `What further is to be done with them?' join themselves in opposition with those who are actuated by sordid avarice only. Among the Romans emancipation required but one effort. The slave, when made free, might mix with, without staining the blood of his master. But with us a second is necessary, unknown to history. When freed, he is to be removed beyond the reach of mixture.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 08:20:12 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Taking comments and discussion out of context (0+ / 0-)

                            etc to make your "an unapologetic racist" comment about Jefferson, doesn't fly.
                            I just spent a lot of time explaining historical context, enlightened persons over unenlightened, the historical discussion and tenor of the times. Then the edit monster erased it so briefly-
                            Yes, Jefferson was a racist in the sense that he believed there were differences, perhaps genetic and social, both and or either- that was common talk in those days.
                            He was also a man of science and open to change of opinion based on new information.
                            "Unapologetic racists" don't do that .
                            Jefferson, like Lincoln, knew slavery was a bad thing, an immoral thing and it did not jibe with what the nation was conceived on. But they know that to end it "in the wrong way" or too abruptly or whatever, would end the nation.

                            Jefferson, like everyone else, was a product if his times,
                            Here's what an unapologetic racist looks like in modern terms, which Jefferson wasn't.

                            Promised myself I was going to stop wasting my time talking to a wall.

                            Cheers.

                            Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy. -8.75, -6.21<> Bring the Troops Home Yesterday

                            by Thousandwatts on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 02:44:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  wow (0+ / 0-)

                            just wow.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 08:21:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

        •  The masses can easily be lead... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oldpunk, PavePusher

          wait, mislead.

          We call this Manufacturing Consent:

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 06:14:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  if we're quoting chomsky: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            luckydog
            Many people who advocate keeping guns have fear of the government in the back of their minds. But that's a crazy response to a real problem.
            he has taken no stand on gun control. he doesn't buy the second amendment argument, but he's also obviously wary of government overreach.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 06:49:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hey, I don't agree with the ACLU's opinion on (4+ / 0-)

              the 2nd A either, but I do monetarily support them.

              Is this my own "cognitive dissonance"???

              Nope, they do more good than harm and they have single-handily have assured my equity under law.

               

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 07:38:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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