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View Diary: MAJOR 2nd Amendment victory in the most RKBA-hostile state in America (608 comments)

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  •  I don't understand what you're trying to say here. (5+ / 0-)

    Could you elaborate?

    I'm just not following what you're getting at...

    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

    by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:37:25 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Because I don't agree with GUNS FOR ALL (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kirbybruno

      ALL THE TIME I'm not saying you are wrong or right now.

      I don't want you to be wrong, because that means too many more people will die; I don't want you to be right, either, because I don't think a huge number of Illini would be as responsible as some RKBAers say THEY are.

      People with guns can intimidate others - who won't complain or be noticed because they fear for themselves, their kids, their pets, their friends, etc., etc. So you all can LOUDLY proclaim the reduced numbers of deaths or shootings without ever noticing or caring about the terror additional people will live under. And yes, men do that now, I do NOT want to hear any bullshit about intimidation not being exclusive to guns.

      It's a weaselly response on my part, and I'm sticking with it.

      I'm firmly in support of NO laws about abortion access (like the laws for gallbladder removal now) and I think homophobia is just dumb.

      But we all know my opinion on the last 2 issues is not shared universally.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:54:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, here's the major problem with that. (9+ / 0-)

        No one advocates for guns for all, all the time.

        Not even the dreaded NRA advocates that there should be no limitations on gun ownership.  So, that being the case, to some extent, you are arguing against a stance not taken.

        When you do that, people are going to dismiss your arguments -- and reasonably so.  Why would anyone consider a counter-argument to an argument not made?

        Additionally, you somewhat misunderstand the argument about intimidation.  Sure, people with guns can intimidate other people.  People without guns can intimidate other people, also.

        Do you want to do away with everything that could possibly intimidate someone else?  I'm assuming not -- it would be nonsensical.

        That being the case, the argument is that, just because some people are intimidated by firearms, is that, in and of itself, enough reason to ban or severely restrict them?

        I believe that it is not.  No more than we should ban red cars because some people find them intimidating.

        This is another misunderstanding:

        So you all can LOUDLY proclaim the reduced numbers of deaths or shootings without ever noticing or caring about the terror additional people will live under.
        What is, in fact, being pointed out is that this terror you refer to is not felt by everyone, and since it can be shown that more legally-owned firearms do not contribute to more deaths or shooting, then this terror is not a reasonable one.

        Should we regulate anything based on unreasonable fears?  I think not.  Clearly, you think otherwise.

        But, let's say we go down that path.  Where do we stop?

        Some people are terrified of homosexuals.  By your own logic, then, homophobia is a good thing!  People should be able to ban same-sex marriage because it is a threat to "normal" marriage, in their view.  Is that a good enough argument to restrict that right?

        If not, then why is it a good enough argument to restrict this right?

        The latter is a rhetorical question -- I am not, at this point, trying to convince you of anything.  I am only trying to explain the point of view from the other side of the argument, which you apparently misunderstand, at several levels.

        Additionally, I probably won't be able to respond any more until morning.  Dinner time.

        Have a good evening.

        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

        by theatre goon on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:09:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  whatever. (0+ / 0-)

          "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

          by glorificus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 04:15:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What a stunning rebuttal! (5+ / 0-)

            With such wordplay, who needs facts or logic on their side?

            I mean, it was positively multi-syllabic!  

            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

            by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 02:53:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No. (0+ / 0-)
              I am only trying to explain the point of view from the other side of the argument, which you apparently misunderstand, at several levels.
              No, I understand.

              I don't agree.

              Homophobia is an opinion or attitude. By itself it hurts no one, just as Rick Perry's fulminations against Planned Parenthood would not hurt women except he has allies in the legislature to pass laws restricting women's ability to get affordable health care.

              On abortion, pergnancy is intrinsic to a woman's body. As a hypothetical, because I neither know nor care about your personal life, if a man with fertile sperm has unprotected sex with a woman at a fertile time in her cycle, conception can occur.

              The results of this conception can kill her. Complications from gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, infection, vertigo at the wrong time, hemorrhage or stroke during birth, suicide from post-partum depression.

              These result from her body.

              A gun is an extrinsic threat. People are not born with them the way they are born with uteri or testes or the ability to form attitudes. Guns need to be obtained sometime after birth.

              I do see a gun can be just a tool. However, too many whackos get their hands on them, and RKBA doesn't care.

              kestrel9000 wrote this celebration of extended gun rights. When the kids are killed RKBA is NEVER out front deploring the death or injury. They pull out statistics and wave the Constitution. A nice, safe, sterile strategy the completely avoids the blood and tears and heartbreak.

              It's always just that individual who was stupid or careless.

              I'm sick of you all "ignoring reality".

              And the dead and injured prove

              That never works out well.

              "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

              by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 05:49:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, relying on emotion rather than fact. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Wordsinthewind, rockhound, KVoimakas

                This is why we'll never agree -- you ignore the facts that you don't like and ascribe stances to people that they don't take.

                In fact, your post here contains several simply untrue assertions:

                A gun is an extrinsic threat.
                ...and RKBA doesn't care.
                When the kids are killed RKBA is NEVER out front deploring the death or injury.
                I'm sick of you all "ignoring reality".
                Some of these are simply factually untrue, some are you attributing attitudes and beliefs to others based on nothing but your own imagination.

                If you refuse to acknowledge objective fact and continue to insist upon ascribing motives and beliefs to others that they do not hold, then there is no point in engaging you in discussion whatsoever.  

                Emotion is not an acceptable yardstick to base law on -- that's how we end up with restrictions on abortion.

                Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:02:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                  A gun is an extrinsic threat.
                  What are you suggesting? Having a revolver surgically attached to your hand? Humans are not normally born with guns as part of their anatomy.
                  When the kids are killed RKBA is NEVER out front deploring the death or injury.
                  Post a link disproving this, please, that doesn't include kestrel9000 piggybacking on my comment.

                  And if you think RKBA issues don't include emotions on your side, you are correct, we won't agree - which I realized early on and so left the one word comment you were so dismissive of.

                  If one is so enamoured of the beauty and importance of the concept of "rights" without looking into what the ramifications of those rights can mean in meatspace, I have no respect or time for them.

                  "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                  by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:40:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, I am stating... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Wordsinthewind, rockhound, KVoimakas

                    ...that a firearm is not, in and of itself, a threat at all.

                    Guns don't leap out of a holster and shoot people without someone actively using them to do so -- nor are they possessed of malevolent spirits that cause people to magically become murderous.

                    They are inert pieces of steel, wood, and/or polymer.

                    Your demands for me to provide disproof of your unsupported claims are ludicrous.  You made the original claim, the onus is on you to support it -- not upon others to disprove it.

                    And, once again, you attribute stances to others that they simply do not take:

                    If one is so enamoured of the beauty and importance of the concept of "rights" without looking into what the ramifications of those rights can mean in meatspace, I have no respect or time for them.
                    This is simply a dishonest tactic.  In my opinion, when one has to resort so often to such tactics to support their own stance, perhaps it is time to take a closer look at that stance.

                    Perhaps one could do so with logic and reason, instead of allowing emotions to cloud reality.

                    If you choose not to do so, that is not my failing, but your own.

                    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                    by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:46:10 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Blah, blah, blah. Did you miss the word "IF" (0+ / 0-)

                      beginning the blockquote? Only you know if that sentence pertains to your mindset.

                      Your first sentence or 2 actually confirms my point. A gun does not act by itself. Therefore it can be controlled. However, TomP has a diary up that illustrates how often that doesn't happen.

                      I'm done. You have the potential to not be an jerk, time will tell.

                      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                      by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:55:24 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ah, yes. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Wordsinthewind

                        "Blah, blah, blah."

                        The usual response of someone with no real response -- and with a sad little attempt at personal insult.

                        Yeah, quite impressive on your part.

                        Really, if that's all you've got, maybe you should reconsider your stance.  I am able to support mine with evidence and logic -- all you seem to have is insults, falsehoods, and non-responses.

                        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                        by theatre goon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 03:21:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

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