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  •  It is horrible (15+ / 0-)

    But, that's how bad teh hate on us is right now. I can guarantee that not one person in RKBA, the gun owners or those like me who don't own, went into that school to kill or ever would do something like that. But, we get talked to as if we did and people pay no price for doing it.

    I belong to a lot of groups, I donate when I can and do what I can to help when someone is low and needs a lift. Frankly, I'm a goddamned good person, but I feel like a pariah. I don't hate on people who disagree with me but I sure get hated on.

    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

    by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 05:12:19 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  You know, people always say that about the guys (8+ / 0-)

      that DO do that.  They're always 'nice guys, quiet', their ex girlfriends say that was 'not the person I knew', but somehow they go do it.

      For 20 odd years, the guy that did it today was 'not someone who would ever do such a thing'.  Until he did.

      And he was able to do so because it was perfectly legal for his mother to collect such an arsenal, because 200+ years ago, a bunch of guys who were really jumpy about being attacked by other hostile countries decided they needed to put in such a clause just in case they needed to raise up the same folks who had just fought the war of independence again.

      The same guys who decided to keep slavery, and didn't allow women to vote.  It took an awful lot of dead Americans to jettison slavery, and we've got an awful lot of dead Americans because of the gun thing too.

      People are fed up with 30000 dead Americans every year who didn't have to die, 5-10 year olds being mowed down, drive-bys, hearing gunfire in their neighborhoods.

      And so, when you go out to 'promote the right to keep and bear arms', you're enabling the continuation of those deaths, those maimings, those living in fear.  No matter how much you think you're a 'goddamned good person'.  

      I'm not 'hating on you', but I think on that one subject you're every bit as misguided as I think Republicans are on most subjects.

      •  Did you just compare (13+ / 0-)

        me to the guy who did this, or a slaver? The fact that I support all of the rights afforded in the Constitution makes me responsible for every gun death, right?

        FYI, I am not a member nor do I support the NRA. I support my friend Ken who feeds his family with hunting every year and has never shot a person, never would.

        I don't believe you can ban guns, I do believe that there are sensible gun controls and if you enforce them it would help. I also believe that we have something deeply wrong with our society as a whole, a rend in our psyche that allows for this kind of violence.

        Maybe it's the demonizing of groups of people, I don't know.

        "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

        by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 05:34:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Responsible? In part, yes. (8+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila, Dreidlgirl, richardak, sk4p, Brit, Smoh, allensl, Loge

          If we had an amendment that specifically supported something else that resulted in the tragedies that go along with gun deaths, and you were part of a group that fervently stood by it, I'd likewise consider you in part responsible for those as well.

          You can't simply say 'I support the second amendment!' and then claim only the good results, such as feeding one's family by hunting, and disclaim any responsibility for the bad parts, such as the death of Trayvon Martin or 20 schoolkids.

          Their are good consequences and bad ones to many of the things we as individuals support, and you can't just go 'No True Scotsman!' when somebody uses a right you support in a way you don't like.  Without 2A supporters, we wouldn't have the current 2A.  Without them, it would have been changed long ago.

          So yeah, you're partly responsible.  If you want to proclaim that 'demonization', go for it.  I call it 'acknowledgement'.

          •  So you want to get rid of the 2nd? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RonV, deedogg, ancblu

            You want to ban guns? Do you think that will make for less violence? If you answer yes on all of those then we probably have nothing to say to each other.

            "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

            by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 06:01:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, I guess I have one more thing to say (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                deedogg, BlackSheep1, ancblu

                I have never given money to the NRA, always voted for Dems, and only spoken of my support here and you say that makes me partly responsible. I'm guilty of a thought crime I guess. I thought this was a liberal site when I joined it 8 years ago.

                "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:01:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not sure what sort of site it is. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  richardak, Smoh

                  I leave that up to Markos.

                  What I do know is that folks on here regularly disagree with one another, and that I don't 'speak for the site'.  I speak for me.

                  I would guess, though, that a lot of users, maybe the ones you think are 'demonizing' you, don't consider RKBA a 'liberal' issue.  Politically, it's one that conservatives have 'owned' by and large.

                  And I'm willing to keep talking if you are.  If your 'we've nothing to talk about' was rhetorical, that's fine.

                  I'm not trying to 'demonize' the RKBA.  I do think they add to what I consider a public health problem.  And, no doubt, if we went through the list of everything I support, we'd no doubt be able to find one or more things I do or support that contribute to other public health problems.  Nobody's perfect, and we're all hypocritical at times.  It's the nature of being human.

                  •  I don't want to quit dialog (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    deedogg, ancblu

                    In truth I believe that talking is how we grow and learn about each other. (Late reply, I had to fix mr.u his dinner). What I reacted to was the idea that I could be responsible for this, it's outrageous.

                    My support for the 2nd stems from my belief that we have never perfected the Constitution and our country by restricting or getting rid of rights, only by maintaining and expanding. Example, I'm an alcoholic with 20yrs sobriety. I understand why Prohibition was attractive but it was a nightmare for the country.

                    I believe that like the drug laws that have followed the prohibitive mind set, gun banning would cause a ripple effect of more crime and more violence. I do think we need to actively enforce things like registration and limiting purchase to shut down black market gun sales.

                    But, ultimately that wouldn't have changed this horrible incident. There is something very sick in our society, the inequities of our health care system and wealth distribution have rotted our society at it's core. We have a bigger problem to fix, IMO.

                    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                    by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:27:19 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  high uintas, in another thread I asked someone (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      high uintas, ancblu, deedogg

                      if they believed that every gun owner in America is responsible, partly, for what happened today in Connecticut. The person responded that they did not believe that, and were shocked that I would ask.

                      Here I find Dr. Erich Bloodaxe, RN, claiming that, yes, every gun owner in America, and even Americans who don't own guns but do support the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed in the Constitution, is partly to blame for the massacre at Sandy Hook School today.

                      We're not just seeing "liberals" and "Democrats" crying out to control guns or change the Constitution, but tarring people for their beliefs as guilty of a massacre.

                      That's just mindboggling, to me....

                      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                      by BlackSheep1 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:11:18 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  To me, too. (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        BlackSheep1, ancblu, deedogg

                        Like I said, it's like Thought Crime. Amazing....

                        "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                        by high uintas on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:50:00 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually you're misunderstanding me. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Smoh

                        I'm not blaming 'every gun owner'.  I'm blaming everyone who advocates for the current, ambiguous second amendment, which we can easily demonstrate has allowed unchecked gun violence to continue across the country for centuries.

                        Not all gun owners do advocate for the current expansionist second amendment, nor seek even to expand the ways in which it is viewed, and to make such violence even more widespread as a side effect.

                        In my mind, it's little different than advocating for 'less government regulation' on businesses, which ignores the fact that regulations are specifically enacted to keep workers safe and the environment clean.  When such regulations are ignored, circumvented, or repealed, people die, whether in garment factory fires or mine collapses.

                        Advocates such as yourself sound the same to me as do the mine owners who moan about how the government is 'anti-business' because it tries to demand safe, controlled working environments.

                        •  So we are guilty of thought crimes. Wow. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          deedogg

                          We think differently than you, and therefore our thoughts make us criminals.

                          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                          by BlackSheep1 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:46:52 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Here's a parallel that might help you understand. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sandino

                            White people benefit from 'white privilege', thanks to the inherent racism of many of our social institutions.  We don't seek to do so, we even often loudly proclaim that we don't, but we do, and those same institutions are detrimental to minorities.  People who do everything they can to maintain the status quo for those institutions are thereby partially responsible for the damage to minorities.

                            In the same fashion, gun owners benefit from the status quo in the lack of real gun control.  If they then likewise go out of their way to promote that status quo, despite knowing the cost of doing so is more deaths, then they're likewise partially responsible for placing their own desires above the lives of those who will die as unintended consequences of maintaining that status quo.

                            There's no 'thought crime' involved.

                          •  Wow. I guess I had better stop believing that (0+ / 0-)

                            the rights, experiences, or circumstances of individuals are ever more important than group notions of safety or benefit.

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:33:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  I am not suggesting we 'ban' guns. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Smoh, Sylv

                      I'm suggesting we drastically change the way in which people access them, and change the 2nd to be more specific about the access allowed.

                      In fact, in another reply I just wrote to another 2a supporter, I noted that I would even allow access to firearms to people without requiring them to even own those firearms.  To make it so if you needed one, you could check it out of a controlled 'militia armoury' for use, much as you do a library book, and return it to such a safe environment when you were done with it, so as never to worry about children finding it and playing with it, never having it stolen to be used in street shootings.

                      And we do have many problems in this country that need fixed, but our current relationship with firearms and the support for the current, ambiguous and vague second amendment is one more problem among many.

        •  bootstrapping argument (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino

          if you accept that there's at least legitimate debate about what the scope of the right in the second amendment is, and further, that even if there is a consensus there is still legitimate debate about which regulations might or might not infringe it, then you can't say you support "the Constitution" with a straight face.  

          If you agitate for policies that make it possible for the shooter to obtain the weapon he used, with the types of rounds he shot, then yes, you have some culpability.  The reason RKBA can go fuck itself is that instead of prompting self-examination, we either get defensive cries of victimization or else absurd claims like arm the teachers, too.

          But to the diary at hand, yes keep the group, so long as we can also have things like Anti-Choice Kos; the Voucherizing Medicare Group; and Invade Iran!

          Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

          by Loge on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:01:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  fed up w/ 30,000 dead Americans every year who DIE (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deedogg, BlackSheep1

        then lets ban cars- There is no such thing as "accidents" IMHO. only selfish crazy A.holes in an  irresponsible, criminally negligent hurry

        Kenyan Socialism today Kenyan Socialism tomorrow Kenyan Socialism forever May his reign last 1,000 years

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:22:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  so, killing people (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino

          is the main purpose of a car?  

          Here the shooter was, just trying to avoid paying excise taxes on tea to the British, when all of a sudden 28 people died.

          Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

          by Loge on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:03:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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