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View Diary: Just Stop. Your unwarranted fears and outmoded beliefs don't trump our rights. (95 comments)

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  •  As far as I'm concerned (17+ / 0-)

    If you are a vegetarian, I can accept you claiming some moral high ground in saying people shouldn't hunt animals.  Or at least, I understand it.  

    However, I will never ever accept anyone who eats meat claiming to have an objection to hunting animals--as some have to me--because there is nothing really more humane about raising and killing livestock than there is about hunting done properly....you just don't have to personally witness the death, so you can pretend it doesn't happen.  

    Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

    by Mark Mywurtz on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 09:09:22 AM PST

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    •  I have no issue with hunting animals for FOOD (16+ / 0-)

      but I take huge exception and great offense to hunting animals for SPORT.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:18:54 AM PST

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      •  See the comment below yours (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, LLPete

        I'm no fan of hunting for sport.  You'll find no trophies on my wall and never will.  

        Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

        by Mark Mywurtz on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:03:12 PM PST

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      •  Or hunting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh

        That creates ecological harm.  Hunting for sport that undoes efforts at ecological restoration in the face of scientific evidence doesn't sit well with me.  First, do no harm.  

        Overall, hunting is almost certainly more sustainable approach than factory farming at least on a limited scale

        Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

        by Mindful Nature on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:58:02 PM PST

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        •  I am a huge fan of the big cats and elephants. (0+ / 0-)

          You can imagine how I feel about "sport" hunting.  On the other hand, they hunt deer literally in my backyard and I have no problem with that.  Well, other than the fact that its illegal to be shooting so close to a residence.  It's just supposed to be just bow hunting.  As long as I see my 7-8 deer a day I know they are not thinning too much.  Sometimes we need a deer crossing light for our driveway.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:49:21 PM PST

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          •  Sounds like (0+ / 0-)

            We are very much on the same page.  Not that you could tell from our discussions!  :)

            I would like to feel less threatened by hunters in the field though.   A friends grad student was killed by hunters and that has colored my perception

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:55:08 PM PST

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        •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mindful Nature

          Where I am at, deer were absent or rare prior to European settlement.  Caribou and moose were here, but didn't occupy exactly the same niche.  After we settled and fragmented the forests with logging, development, and agriculture, the deer moved in, caribou were eliminated, and moose numbers declined.  

          Now, deer are very plentiful and are causing serious damage to forests.  It's almost impossible for white pine, northern white cedar, and other tree species to regenerate naturally because of all the deer.  That's not good for forest ecosystems at all.  About a quarter million deer are taken in Minnesota annually, so hunting helps reduce the damage caused by deer, otherwise certain tree and shrub species would be almost completely eliminated from our forests.  This many deer is astounding, considering we have the highest wolf population in the lower 48 states.  

          Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

          by Mark Mywurtz on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:06:38 PM PST

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          •  Very true (0+ / 0-)

            Hunters can definitely play the role left open by the extermination of other top predators.  

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:57:03 PM PST

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    •  To me, people who ENJOY killing (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greengemini, Odysseus, FloraLine, Smoh

      things are worse than people who just enjoy the fruits of killing (or meats, as it were).  My problem isn't with the taking of a life, it's with people who enjoy doing it.

      •  I don't enjoy killing (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hastur, kamarvt, debedb, Smoh, Joe Bob, gramofsam1

        In fact, there have been times I felt a great deal of remorse.  It's difficult watching something die....but if you are going to eat meat, you should at least be willing to occasionally.  When you pull a trigger and see a game animal take it's last breath, never to eat, sleep, mate...anything, again....you appreciate what you have.  Seriously.  When you sit at a ball game and have a hot dog or eat chicken nuggets, you get to pretend what you're eating is no different from a donut or potato chips and that no creatures were harmed....but they were.  Terribly and permanently....though unlike game, many of them suffered through their entire existence.  I actually had a friend tell me she objected to hunting because she didn't want to be responsible for killing an animal....right after finishing a chili dog.  

        Killing sucks.  But what doesn't suck is at least knowing that unlike people eating meat from a restaurant or supermarket, I was willing to acknowledge that there was a creature behind that and expose myself to the pain that had to occur.  I don't apologize for that.  And I eat very little meat outside of game and fish these days....I have had only oatmeal and a spinach enchilada today, yesterday was just oatmeal, cereal, & yogurt.  What I do enjoy is being outdoors by myself and knowing that I am capable of harvesting game and preparing it in a way that is safe to consume....when I buy food, I have no idea how it was prepared or what was done to it.  I feel the same way about my small--but on it's way to expansion--garden.  

        Are there slobs and rednecks who really DO enjoy killing?  Absolutely.  Rest assured....even though I hunt, I am just as sickened when I see other supposed "hunters" with bumper stickers and shirts reading "PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals" "It flies, it dies" or "There's a place for all God's creatures...right next to the mashed potatoes".  (Sarah Palin has even used that last ignorant gem.)  Hunting as fashion statement is always juvenile.  I hate those assholes as much as I hate the NRA or shows like Duck Commander which cheapen life.  

        Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

        by Mark Mywurtz on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:01:40 PM PST

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        •  Good for you. (5+ / 0-)

          I've been a vegetarian for over 30 years. At one time, I dated a hunter - a damn-near fanatical one. I didn't have a problem with it. As I saw it, we came to very similar conclusions about killing animals. I could not do it, nor was I hypocritical enough to think it was OK as long I could get someone else to do it and I didn't have to dirty my own hands. He could do it, and as he said, he at least had the guts to look his dinner in the face and accept what eating meat involved. He did dirty his own hands, and he ate whatever he killed.

          It really is a very similar philosophy.

          I’m tired of sacrificing lives on the altar of the Second Amendment. - Mark Damico

          by Hastur on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:26:34 PM PST

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          •  Reminds me of this Shia Muslim -- (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1, LLPete, Larsstephens

            -- in Mumbai with whom I had a heated discussion: herbivore (me) vs carnivore (he). He said that the killing of prey was part of the natural order of things. Primitive humans did it instinctively, we just get to do it with a little more thought.

            Ah, but you don't do the killing yourself, I riposted cleverly. Nothing instinctive about buying packaged cuts of meat.

            Ah, but I do, when it's part of the tradition, he said.

            And damn me if he didn't do it the very next day, as part of Bakri Id, a very important Muslim religious holiday. And much to my reluctance, he insisted that I watch. His family had tended that goat in their backyard for most of the year, and the children had played with it. But they too were there, watching solemnly as my friend stroked the goat to calm it down, said a few Urdu words (which turned out to be a ritual 'thank you' to the goat), actually nuzzled it and kissed its forehead - and then made a quick cut through its carotid artery and windpipe. It must have been unconscious not more than 10 seconds later, and dead soon after.

            That was a good death
            , he said. It wasn't factory farming and assembly-line slaughterhouse brutalities.

            Lay off the footwork and throw a punch! ~ Joe Bageant

            by gotgat54 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:28:44 PM PST

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          •  Excellent comment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1, Larsstephens

            Sent to top comments, but I think I was late. No matter. Still great stuff.

            "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov

            by Hammerhand on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:33:27 PM PST

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        •  Maybe a little less judgmental about something (0+ / 0-)

          you seemingly haven't thought much about or done much of eh?

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:08:34 PM PST

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