Skip to main content

View Diary: Gunman barges into Birmingham hospital, shoots three people before being fatally shot (185 comments)

Comment Preferences

    •  She was referring to the situation at (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, mungley, gerrilea

      the hospital, not anything else. Let's not lash out at the innocent bystanders in our rage, okay?

      •  i'm (14+ / 0-)

        not lashing out at the woman, nor am I in a rage.

        I know what she was referring to.

        I just think she's mistaken. Both there, and in the country at large.

        •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea

          You are lashing out in a rage.
          If the shooter was neutralized, then the situation is under control, and you know that.
          This is not the time to twist words.

          █████████████████████████████████████████

          by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:23:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm backing blueness on this one. (11+ / 0-)

            It was a perfectly valid observation/commentary on our culture of violence and insanity.

            Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

            by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:29:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Make it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea

              without twisting somebody's words into meaning something they were not intended to.

              █████████████████████████████████████████

              by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:31:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Meaning and intent were clear. (8+ / 0-)

                Let's talk about gun deaths and our culture of murder now, ok?

                Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

                by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:36:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Can we talk about (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea, melo

                  root causes of violence and what combination of means are needed to address its reduction instead?

                  █████████████████████████████████████████

                  by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:37:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Can we talk about an absolute Federal ban (13+ / 0-)

                    on semi-automatic weapons first?

                    OK?

                    since that's quite a bit more straightforward... and could be achieved within months, rather than within generations?

                    When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                    by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:41:30 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's not realistic in any sense (0+ / 0-)

                      and you know it.
                      I'll find someone else to talk to.

                      █████████████████████████████████████████

                      by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:50:49 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Tragically, it's a lot more realistic NOW (8+ / 0-)

                        than it was two days ago.

                        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                        by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:58:54 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  A federal ban (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Otteray Scribe, happy camper

                          on all semiautomatic weapons, and confiscation within months.
                          Explain to me how that is realistic, in any way achievable, or even desirable.

                          █████████████████████████████████████████

                          by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:01:55 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  How is it not desirable? (7+ / 0-)

                            These weapons are not used in hunting, target shooting, home protection. They serve no purpose other than killing a lot of people very quickly.

                            I said nothing about how long a mandatory buy-back of semi-automatic weapons might take. Certainly a reasonable time frame for that would be a few years, rather than the few months drafting and passing suitable legislation would require.

                            Still a lot faster than the few generations required to heal the violent American soul.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:15:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes (13+ / 0-)

                            actually, they are used in hunting, target shooting, and home protection.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:16:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This guy in Houston--a staunch defender (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            elwior

                            of the 2nd Amendment--makes the case a lot better than I can.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:21:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ANyone can say (10+ / 0-)

                            they're a gun owner and Second Amendment supporter, but no one who seriously understands guns and gun ownership would suggest such a massively radical step.
                            I would not support it. Very few people would.
                            I own a semiautomatic pistol for personal defense. I also own a .22 plinker which is also semiautomatic.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:24:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, I used mine the other day. (12+ / 0-)

                             I had some copperheads outside the house while I was powerwashing. They will not be biting me or mine anymore.
                              Now, living in the woods like I do, I carry all day. Between the coyotes trying to grab my smallestl dog, the home invasions, and the fact that the police are 15 minutes away, at best, I will continue to use my handguns. Thank you very much.

                            "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

                            by meagert on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:23:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You needed a Glock semi-automatic pistol (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar, salamanderempress, alba

                            to kill a few snakes?

                            I'm no anti-gun absolutist. I believe that, as long as humans consume flesh, hunting and butchering it yourself is easily the most ethical way to do it.

                            Target shooting? Fine, a hobby like any other.

                            Home protection? I'm much iffier about that, but I can accept a limited right there too.

                            But...

                            Semi-automatic weapons? If banning them means it will take you minutes rather than seconds to rid your property of copperheads, that doesn't seem like an overly steep price to pay.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:30:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You really have no idea about guns. (8+ / 0-)

                            Or, for that matter, living in the country, or around venomous snakes. If I wanted to carry my shotgun around all day, while I worked, would that make you feel better?
                             Geez!

                            "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

                            by meagert on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:43:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I do though. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PhilJD

                            And the thought of using a semi-automatic pistol for snakes as opposed to a shotgun is ludicrous. For that matter why do you need a semi-auto, a revolver would be better (more reliable, less likely to jam).  
                            Last thought, why does a semi-automatic need 9+ shot clips, make it 6 like a revolver, any more and you start facing fines/jail/community service.

                          •  So, you'd rather torture the animal before it (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            meagert, PavePusher, wishbone, 43north

                            dies or you're a bad shot or both? Is that why you prefer a shotgun?

                            As for your second preference: Have you ever been confronted by 18-20 gang members trying to break into your home?

                            I have.

                            In your world, I'd be dead because I couldn't defend myself.  And in this nation currently, the police do not have to protect the individual.  

                            Will you protect me?

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:16:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Torture?? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, PhilJD

                            Having grown up in an area with poisonous snakes I can say a shotgun with the appropriate load/round is far more effective for hitting and killing the snake.

                            As to the 18 -20 gang members, no never been in anything vaguely like that, thank God.  I would ask how you got out of that situation?  Guns blazing and if so what type?  I would also venture that your situation is in the extreme, terrible, but rare.

                            Needless to say I am glad you survived and are here to debate/discuss issues with us.

                            Oh, and were I a neighbor to you, yes, I would do everything in my power to help.  I have been shot at and threatened for intervening in neighbors affairs (spousal & child abuse).

                          •  Yes, I've grown up where there were (5+ / 0-)

                            poisonous snakes, we didn't use a shotgun or any gun, that damn old baseball bat worked wonders...

                            ;)

                            I've shot both handguns and shot guns.  Shotguns, the pellets span out, unless you were my Dad whom cut the shell casings a bit before loading them, turning them into slugs.

                            Shotgun wounds will kill but after contracted pain and suffering of the animal.  But I guess that also depends on how close you are to it when you shoot.

                            As for that experience I referenced: I was 13, a gang of guys came pounding on our door demanding my father (whom wasn't home at the time) and when we didn't answer the door they started to break in.  Just after they broke the windows on the sides of the door I ran upstairs (with my older sister) and I loaded my Dad's 357 and handed my sister the 12 gauge.

                            When the intruders opened the door, I was waiting, they stopped. I told them if they came any further they would be shot (as I pulled the loaded firearm up and pointed directly at their leader.  He acted like he was going to take another step and my sister (whom was standing behind me on the stairs) cocked the 12 gauge...

                            They all ran.

                            We survived and it is because of that event I will not arm myself, even to this day.  I know, for me, I will use it to kill, without thought or remorse if I'm ever in a life and death situation again.  I chose not to become a killer, even if lawfully justified.  I may end up someday dying because of this choice but it's still mine to make.  No one else's, and I like it like that.  

                            The price of freedom, is having the ability to make a decision and living with the consequences.

                            As a member of the LGBT community, I've witnessed more and more violence against us and I've reconsidered my personal choice many times.  I've discussed it with friends here on DK and I may need the protection only a firearm can provide.  

                            I do like having options, but they seem to be getting smaller and smaller.  Die as a victim or live defending oneself.

                            And thank you, I would appreciate a neighbor willing to defend me, as I would defend them as best I could.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:51:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you for the reply (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PhilJD, gerrilea, BlackSheep1

                            We will have to agree to disagree re. the snakes.  We used a shotgun with .000 or Slug load, very effective, and quick as I remember.

                            As to your horrific experience... amazing courage and cool under extreme pressure.  Once again I'm very glad you are here today to engage in thoughtful debate.

                            Regarding courage, no way in hell I'm getting close enough to a Rattlesnake to kill it with a baseball bat, not gonna happen.

                          •  The privilege of getting to know you a little (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, BlackSheep1

                            better, gerrilea, is one positive to emerge from this awful week.

                            Thanks for recounting your story; an impressive display of calm courage at a very young age.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:30:24 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  wait-- (0+ / 0-)

                            Home invasions are common in your neighborhood?  Why aren't you reporting them?

                          •  'a mandatory buy-back of semi-automatic weapons' (8+ / 0-)

                            & like what kinda compliance rate would you honestly guess?

                            I'm afraid it would take someone like Blackwater going door to door...
                            & just for the record, its a lot easier to first institute mandatory registration, before the  'buy backs' begin, (cough cough- Canada)

                            Kenyan Socialism today Kenyan Socialism tomorrow Kenyan Socialism forever May his reign last 1,000 years

                            by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:26:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It worked in Australia, (4+ / 0-)

                            after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:36:01 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Australia did not start (5+ / 0-)

                            with 300 million guns and 170 million gun owners. Compare it with the logistics of confiscating every television.

                            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                            by happy camper on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:49:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We have to try something (5+ / 0-)

                            faster and more proactive than attacking the "root causes" of American violence.

                            Now is the moment to do that, whatever "something" turns out to be.

                            Gun control has never been an issue that particularly engages me. I'm far more concerned with economic justice and civil liberty. I think it's telling that someone like me, who has been conspicuously silent in the DKos gun wars, now has no real choice but to get off the fence.

                            I think the American mood is changing.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:13:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Restrictions on hardware. (5+ / 0-)

                            I simply don't believe such restrictions will be either fast, or particularly effective, given the factors I have outlined--too many guns to confiscate, too many people who will object, no consensus on even what particular weapons to focus on. Hell, the vast majority of guns are not registered--we have no idea who even owns guns, in most cases.

                            I understand what you're saying, really I do, but I would rather do something that has a better chance of having positive, measurable results.

                            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                            by happy camper on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:41:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Like what? (0+ / 0-)

                            Please be specific.

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:03:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sure. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            OMwordTHRUdaFOG, wishbone, 43north, PhilJD

                            End the drug war. Fifty percent of all gun murders are criminal on criminal violence related to gang turf wars, drug deals gone bad, etc.

                            Extend the NICS check system to cover private sales. Some people don't like the idea, but we've been doing it for years with handguns in MI.

                            Mental health care. Too many disturbed individuals are walking around untreated and undiagnosed. You'll never get 'em all, but we can do better identifying the sick people among us.

                            Education. Statistics show that more education generally equals less propensity to violent crime.

                            Jobs. Poverty is highly correlated with violent behavior and criminal activity.

                            This diary may be of interest...  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                            by happy camper on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:19:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ah yes, something similar to KVoimakas' list. (0+ / 0-)

                            As I've said before, add a couple of unicorns and a griffin and I'll support that one also.

                            The NiCS thing might be good, but the Michigan legislators are batshit crazy in terms of letting guns go everywhere so I'm wary of that.

                            Altho if the Rs would get off their asses and pass another stimulus bill the increased jobs that could happen pretty quickly, I think.

                            However, actually doing something that removes guns and reduces magazine sizes now from people is probably more helpful.

                            Your list is good and should definitely be put into action, but I'm not interested in the multitude of school kids that would be killed waiting for it to go into effect.

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:30:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  PhilJD, I've respected your opinion in many (4+ / 0-)

                            diaries I've read and if we don't go after the causes of violence, it won't matter what you ban.  The violence displayed will evolve to other grotesque forms.  People will still die and you won't stop the killings.

                            Anyone can get a gasoline container and set a building on fire in the middle of the night.  

                            We have to help one another, anything less and it won't matter.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:23:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course I don't object to going after the causes (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, glorificus, poco

                            of violence in America. With all the good will in the world though, even if--against all odds--red America and blue America work together on this...

                            we still are talking about many years, probably generations, before the problem can be solved.

                            I just don't think we have that kind of time.

                            It's impossible to escape the fact that no one died in the classroom knife attack in China.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:31:44 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sadly, it took us just 30 short yrs to get to this (4+ / 0-)

                            point.

                            I'm willing to try almost anything that will keep us in power and actually make a difference in the lives of our fellow Americans, making them better.

                            Banning won't fix these things:

                            Poverty and crime.  School to prison pipeline. The Prison Industrial Complex will love new laws banning things, people won't comply and they'll get their steady stream of new clientele.  

                            Our Military Industrial Complex will love it as well, they'll get more recruits that can't get training or access to firearms any other way.  

                            Our Corporate Overlords will feast on the profits they collect from the wars they get us into and the products that are manufactured by the inmates.

                            And the killings will continue.

                            http://www.theatlantic.com/...

                            The raw material of the prison-industrial complex is its inmates: the poor, the homeless, and the mentally ill; drug dealers, drug addicts, alcoholics, and a wide assortment of violent sociopaths. About 70 percent of the prison inmates in the United States are illiterate. Perhaps 200,000 of the country's inmates suffer from a serious mental illness. A generation ago such people were handled primarily by the mental-health, not the criminal-justice, system. Sixty to 80 percent of the American inmate population has a history of substance abuse. Meanwhile, the number of drug-treatment slots in American prisons has declined by more than half since 1993. Drug treatment is now available to just one in ten of the inmates who need it.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:55:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Are you actually advocating for... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north

                            door-to-door confiscation?

                            Please tell e I've misinterpreted your allusions.

                            If I haven't, are you going to volunteer for one of the teams?  Point-man or nothing.

                          •  But we have American Exceptionalism (0+ / 0-)

                            on our side!!!!

                            We can do it!!!!

                            USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSA!!!

                            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                            by glorificus on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:02:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, I've noticed a pattern throughout the (4+ / 0-)

                            world recently.

                            Rampage killings

                            the Hungerford massacre of 1987 and the Dunblane school massacre of 1996; each led to strong public and political demands to restrict firearm use, and tightening of laws. The result has been among the strictest firearms laws in the world.[11
                            The pattern is that there is a massacre and then citizens rights are taken away.

                            Except in places where they had no rights to begin with, those damn events still happen.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:40:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Personal rights & liberty is far more basic (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, glorificus, 43north

                            to my core beliefs than gun control is... but I've reached the point where doing nothing no longer feels like an option.

                            We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

                            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                            by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:52:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Done in Australia, Kestrel. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PhilJD, redrobin, poco

                            And their love of guns and gunplay was every bit as deeply cultural as ours is.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:21:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You (0+ / 0-)

                            I have no use for, and no intterest in talking to.
                            Pound sand.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:04:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Address the point or lose the point. (0+ / 0-)

                            Those are the choices in a debate.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:18:29 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not interested (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            dnta

                            in the choices you offer.
                            I have long thought you a liar, you own no guns, and you are full of shit.
                            You are a liar.
                            I choose not to engage you, and that will not change, because I do not believe your assertions about your perspective.
                            I regard you as dishonorable and a liar, and I have no interest in your comments.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:23:42 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HR for unsubstantiated accusation of lying (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PhilJD

                            See how it works? This is what you do all the time.  

                            Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

                            by dnta on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:29:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Do what you want. (0+ / 0-)

                            You don't know the history, but OregonOak does.
                            I stand by it.  HR away. It does nothing but make you happy, and look like an idiot to those who know.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:32:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, so now you're bringing in unrelated threads? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PhilJD

                            That's another thing you've HR'd consistently for, when it suits your purpose.  You throw that rule in anyone's face and HR with glee.   Yet here, no problem, you can insult this guy and call him a liar based on nothing to do with this thread.

                            I couldn't care less about the history.  I'm in favor of civil and sensible discussion on a critical issue.  You're in favor of derailing such discussion, any time it points away from your fanatically one-dimensional opinion.  

                            And you're an utter hypocrite when it comes to HRs and The Rules.  You really never do look in your own mirror, do you?

                            Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

                            by dnta on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:35:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  With that (0+ / 0-)

                            I shut down for the night.
                            You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and I'm in no position to pursue this. I have a house full of teenagers.
                            I choose to focus on that.
                            Good night.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:35:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good Night. (0+ / 0-)

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:02:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sigh. Ad Hominum much? (0+ / 0-)

                            I guess this is stock in trade for Radio Talk Show Hosts, or whatever you are.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:05:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes it is- (0+ / 0-)

                          "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

                          by lyvwyr101 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:01:33 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  No. (0+ / 0-)

                    Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

                    by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:42:04 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Now you've got me curious. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mungley, kestrel9000, Mayfly, luckydog

                      Why not?

                      •  That's a red herring. (5+ / 0-)

                        The root causes of violence have nothing to do with the facility with which a person can commit mayhem with a gun.

                        Enough people are killed accidentally with gins each year, that it is still a problem of epidemic proportions.

                        Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

                        by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:48:06 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If they're killed with gins (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          mungley

                          we need better distilleries.

                          The root causes of violence have nothing to do with the facility with which a person can commit mayhem with a gun.
                          But they have everything to do with WHY they do it.

                          Nothing technological prevented what happened in that Aurora theater from happenning t a 1955 showing of "Rebel Without A CAuse."

                          Why didn't these things happen then?

                          █████████████████████████████████████████

                          by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:52:31 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry. I got my alcohol rant and my gun rant (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kestrel9000

                            mixed up.

                            Nothing technological prevented what happened in that Aurora theater from happenning t a 1955 showing of "Rebel Without A CAuse."
                            1.) Did anyone have easy access to the kinds of weapons that were used in Aurora in 1955?

                            2.) Batman sucked and James Dean was awesome (snark, and I have not seen the Batman movie from this year.)

                            3.) We were probably just as violent (or more so) in 1955, just less lethal. Domestic violence was more prevalent, yet fewer people died therefrom.

                            Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

                            by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:06:42 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Answer to #1 (0+ / 0-)

                            Yes. Weapons just as capable were as easily available, if not more so, then. Ever heard of an M-1? Or a 1911 .45 pistol?

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:20:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And full body armor? How much did the guns cost? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            glorificus, poco

                            How were they distributed?

                            What are the sales statistics for 1955 vs 2012?

                            What was the post WWII mental health system like for veterans?
                            What was it like for just plain assholes with guns?

                            The guy in aurora had protective gear that did not exist in 1955.
                            He was also not going to be stopped by another movie goer with a handgun.

                            How did one acquire an M1 in 1955?

                            Does the 1966 mass shooting at the University of Texas come close enough to your arbitrary date?

                            That guy bought a gun at Sears with the intent of committing murder.  He had faced court martial for offenses including violent threats against a fellow service member.  Selling him guns was a bad idea.

                            It is guns that are the cause of guns deaths. Gun facilitate death.

                            It's is silly to attempt to stamp out anger in order to prevent gun deaths. That's a waste of time, and a guarantee that more innocent blood will be shed because gun fetishists are too ashamed of their own failings to realize that they are destroying our society.

                            Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

                            by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:59:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mungley
                            gun fetishists are too ashamed of their own failings
                            is a conversation ender.

                            Have a good evening.

                            █████████████████████████████████████████

                            by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:03:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You too. Stay safe. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kestrel9000

                            Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

                            by mungley on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:32:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Ah, I see. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          mungley

                          I agree with you, in the main, but I was intrigued by your one word shut down.

                          I'm not so sure that a general discussion of the root causes of violence in this country wouldn't be a better way to address this issue than the "he did it first" kind of arguments we get, both in politics and on this forum.

                        •  By an awful coincidence, just yesterday in China (8+ / 0-)

                          there was also an attack in an elementary school.

                          The weapon there was a knife.

                          The number of victims was quite similar to CT, and no doubt the attacker was equally dedicated, equally deranged.

                          No one died.

                          That's a rather telling difference, wouldn't you say?

                          When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                          by PhilJD on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:56:47 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  You know what else (0+ / 0-)

                          I think is a red herring---mungley: blaming all this on the mentally ill.

                          Granted---- mentall illness DOES play a part in things like this--- but here's the rub:

                          We have always had mentally ill people---what we haven't always had----are lax permissive gun laws--and easy access to guns.

                          We willl always have mentally ill people--no matter how good diagnosis is---no matter how good treatment is---no matter how good procedure is----the mentally ill will always be with us.

                          What we need to address--- is the easy access to guns in this country.

                          It is the guns.

                          "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

                          by lyvwyr101 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:27:18 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  how about (0+ / 0-)

                    Here's one area where it would be interesting to test economic theory.

                    Lets make the manufacture, importation and sale of automatic weapons less profitable.  A lot less profitable-- a break even proposition.  And lets beef up the ATF so that we can apprehend the tax scofflaws that will be selling black market in order to make a profit.  

                    If it's about rights the industry will continue to make/import/sell arms and break even.  If it's about money-- well, you see where this is going, the right to bear arms if there is one is not necessarily a right to make money providing arms to those who want them.

          •  what words show rage in the comment...? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness, poco, glorificus

            ...seems that your claim is without substance.

            Cheers.

          •  i'm sorry, (9+ / 0-)

            but among the many other things you are not, is a mindreader.

            I am not lashing out, nor am I in a rage. Sorry. ; )

            And I find it amusing that you would claim someone else is "twist[ing] words."

            Speaking of words: "neutralized"? Blecch.

            •  Fair enough. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueness, gerrilea

              Trying to be as clinical as possible here.
              We'll ignore sentence #3. I have no time for pissing matches.
              I have an example to set. I don't claim I'll be perfect, but I claim that I will do my best.

              █████████████████████████████████████████

              by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:36:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Set an example (13+ / 0-)

                by not jumping in and dumping on random people's innocuous comments that you can gratuitously twist to find offensive... particularly if they contain any inference of an anti-gun agenda.

                Set an example by ONCE, JUST ONCE, criticizing the knee-jerk pro-gun, anti-regulation, attitude of your comrades.

                Set an example by openly and strongly acknowledging that the outrage and anger felt by those who are calling for greater gun restrictions is justified, understandably, and reasonable.

                Set an example by proposing something specific that will reduce the proliferation of guns and gun violence: NOT "more mental health care" or similar deflections, but actual restrictions on gun access.

                Set an example by showing that you are not singularly, obsessively concerned solely with shooting down (yes, I mean the term) any and all arguments that take aim at 2nd amendment absolutism.

                Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

                by dnta on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:44:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  that describes an admirable set of examples... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dnta, Hastur, lyvwyr101

                  ...for gun enthusiasts - in general - to aspire to.

                  Cheers.

                •  obviously (0+ / 0-)

                  you haven't read all of my comments within the last day and  a half.

                  ONCE, JUST ONCE, criticizing the knee-jerk pro-gun, anti-regulation, attitude of your comrades.
                  As you wish.

                  █████████████████████████████████████████

                  by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:03:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yeah, that was some harsh criticism (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    salamanderempress, lyvwyr101
                    This had better be the last time
                    you find yourself required to [apologize]
                    Great smackdown there!  Way to stand up to your bully compatriot.  You got any other examples, besides this "one"?

                    In any event, I've seen enough of your act on this topic to know that you are one of the quickest to HR, the quickest to demonize, the most smug and self-righteous in your one-dimensional view on guns and the second amendment, the most condescending and unsympathetic towards those who are passionate about reducing gun violence.  And that you consider yourself a "victim" for the criticism you receive in response.  

                    You want your views to be taken seriously? Change.

                    Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

                    by dnta on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:16:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I think I've read quite a few, and haven't been (0+ / 0-)

                    overwhelmed with your epiphany, except in twigg's post.

                    "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                    by glorificus on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:10:50 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  "clinical"...? perhaps not an accurate adjective.. (0+ / 0-)

                ...considering the circumstances of its use.

                Cheers.

    •  Absolutely accurate- (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueness
      The guns are out of control. And so are the people.

      "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

      by lyvwyr101 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:59:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site